Demonstrating Hesed Love
Last episode, we explored the hesed love of God - a sacrificial love that faithfully pursues even to its own hurt. Now Janet Aucoin and Jocelyn Wallace will take a look at what hesed love can look like, as we as Christ's followers attempt to live it out in everyday life. Main Passage: John 13
Facebook, Instagram
Donate to Joyful Journey Podcast
Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Transcript:
Resources:
Books
Gentle and Lowly - Dane Ortlund
The Shepherd Trilogy - Phillip Keller
Janet: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Alexandra: I just want to make it as totally simple and no brainer as possible for ladies to see that
the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of
my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to
inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as
women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy. Typically, I’ll be joined by either
Jocelyn or Alexandra, but for our first full episode listen as all three of us discuss the topic of
joy.
Janet: Well, Hey everyone. I'm Janet back again with Jocelyn. In our last episode, we focused on
Biblical love, and defined the, um, almost inexpressible word, hesed which we saw most clearly
in Jesus. Go back and listen to that for a lot more detail, but let me at least give you a quick
recap. In the Old Testament in Hebrew, the word hesed is used to describe one of the many ways
to describe God's love. And we really don't know how to define it. Because it's such a big, big
word, but in the book by Michael Card called Inexpressible all about that word, hesed. He gives
a working definition, a beginning of a definition that is this. "When the person from whom I have
a right to expect nothing gives me everything and gives it to me freely because it pleases the one
that gives it." That's amazing. I'm going to just read a couple of other quotes from his book that I
read last time, because I think it will at least get us back in what is hesed because we're going to
need that for our this episode. " Again and again, just when a multitude of characters in the Bible
realize their own inadequacy, their own sin, just when they realize they have a right to expect
nothing. They receive not simply a second chance, but everything from God. A new age of
trusting the Lord is born." And I think that's going to be key if we trust this God of hesed, how
are we going to live?
Jocelyn: Exactly, yep.
Janet: And that's what we're going to talk about in this episode, he goes on to say, "the great
surprise of the Hebrew Bible is not that God is awesome or Holy. These characteristics we would
expect from God. The great surprise is that He is kind. That He is a God of hesed." And we
talked about the Bible Project and their video on hesed here is their definition, "love, generosity,
enduring commitment, promise keeping loyalty motivated by deep personal care, not conditional,
an expression of the givers character." And in that video, they make this statement as an
example, "that God recommit Himself to people who don't want to be committed to Him." Wow!
Let that sink in. Go back to the last episode, revel in that truth. And this week, I want to say so
Jocelyn, how should that impact us?
Jocelyn: Yeah, let's talk about it.
Janet: Okay. This was also helpful from that book. Yes, God loves us in that way. What is the
expected response? God really does have the right to expect our loyalty in return for His hesed. I
think sometimes when we talk about unconditional love, it's like, it should have no impact on
how I love back. They just love because they love.
Jocelyn: Right. So I just going to stand here and take it when I feel like it, because I've got lots of
things that I'm doing and His love is just one of those things in my life.
Janet: Yes. And I loved this sentence in the Inexpressible book "to receive hesed and not return it
leaves the initial party deeply disappointed. Be it an individual or God himself, if it is not
returned freely in gratitude, you have not understood the nature of the hesed that was shown to
you in the first place."
Jocelyn: That's profound.
Janet: I love that. If you really understood it, you would return it freely and with gratitude. When
I counsel people who are. I think of a good friend of mine. We were talking about this concept,
and she was thinking it through and she'd been raised. She knew the Lord, but raised in a fairly,
legalistic fashion. But was saved. So as we were really trying to understand this concept of
hesed, it made her incredibly uncomfortable. And in part there was, this is that easy believism. Is
that no matter what I do? Okay. I prayed my prayer. He loves me with this hesed love. No matter
what I do is not. And go do whatever I want.
Jocelyn: That's a good question.
Janet: Yes. And so this analogy I have found helpful, we'll see. We'll see if you do.
Jocelyn: Okay.
Janet: Let's imagine. That you have the perfect husband. We have husbands who love God, but
they're not perfect. And this is not really about them. This is just saying, imagine that you really,
really, really did have the perfect husband who loves you unconditionally. And I don't mean
loves you wimpy.
Jocelyn: Like hardcore comes after you, which is unconditional love.
Janet: Yes. When you're happy, he rejoices in that because he loves to see you happy. When
you're sad, it brings him grief. When you sin, he patiently draws you back. This is not the wimpy,
"I need you to be happy with me," man. This is to his own hurt, he loves you. And you know that
even when you sin, he's never going to walk away from you. He's never going to respond in
sinful anger, but he is going to take you back to the cross every, every time and let you know, no
matter what you do, he's loyal to you. He wants you to give a good account before the Lord more
than you want to give one. He loves you unconditionally to your own hurt. Would that in itself,
encourage you to commit adultery?
Jocelyn: I don't think so.
Janet: I love you no matter what.
Jocelyn: Well, but if you loved me that hugely, I would want to want to respond by loving him
that hugely back.
Janet: Exactly. And does that mean we would never commit adultery? No, but that statement
about him does not encourage you to commit adultery. And as I talked about that with my friend,
she was like, No, no being loved like that, not wimpy love real deep committed love,
Jocelyn: Uncomfortable love.
Janet: To his own hurt because it's best for you always. Here's what that ingenders, fierce loyalty.
That's Psalm 139, David saying You love me like that. I hate those who hate You. Those who
don't love You, they're not going to be the ones who give me advice. Anyone who would know
everything about me, and love me anyway, fierce loyalty. If I really understood the hesed of God
for me. It would not result in good, I can do whatever I want and He's gonna love me. It does not
encourage me to commit adultery.
Jocelyn: That wouldn't be an accurate understanding of that kind of love. If you are motivated to
go do whatever you wanted, you didn't really get it. You didn't really understand it.
Janet: Right. And so sometimes we do that with God, but it's because we don't get it. It's not
because easy believism, if you really understood, He's going to love you no matter what you
would run away and do whatever you want and know, He'll always take me back. No. You would
know that's what your soul's longing for. That's what's going to satisfy me.
Jocelyn: You would respond to that with a smaller version, hopefully growing, of that kind of
love back, it's been demonstrated to you and your responses. Now let me emulate it.
Janet: I want to give that back. Yes. So, then we can go back to John 13:34 and Jesus, now that
we have a better understanding of that love from the last episode in this little bitty recap, um, He
says, "just as I have loved you, go and love each other. And that's how the world will know that
you're my disciples, your love for each other". Now that I understand what that love really is. Oh,
of course the world's going to see it. If we love each other like that,
Jocelyn: It looks so it's foreign. It's like not, that's not normal kind of love according to everyone
around us.
Janet: Yes. When the college ministry that sometimes the kids would talk about, I'm trying to
figure out how to stand out in class and how to be different. And at some point, someone even
said, you know, I don't listen to certain music so that they can see that I'm different. And I'm like,
if you love like this, you don't have to try to be different.
Jocelyn: You're going to stick out like a sore thumb.
Janet: You just are different.
Jocelyn: The world doesn't, they can't love like this. They don't understand that example. It hasn't
struck them in a way that, blows them over. So they wouldn't love with the kind of love that
Jesus has because if they understood that love, they would be His, they would be drawn to it.
Janet: Yes. So we will be different. Yes. So just the summary from the last episode about what
Jesus' love was like. He loved always, regardless of the behavior of the one He was loving. He
loved to His own hurt. He loved first most, and at the cost of His life . Go and do likewise. So
when I think about what that would look like in our lives, and I talked to women, some of whom
are in incredibly painful marriages thinking through Biblical love, and here is the way it gets
twisted. If I'm going to love him, I need to please him. I need to make him happy. That's what
love is. And I think sometimes we say that, we need to please other people, I need to be more
concerned about pleasing him than myself, but I think we have to be really careful about that
because love ,Biblical love, is always pointing people to righteousness. Yes. Always, always.
That's what Jesus did. He died for.
Jocelyn: That was His whole point. He loved in order for people to be able to live according to
His standards of what is right and good.
Janet: Exactly. So then how are we going to love? And then, so there's that confusion of saying,
but when I do that, it makes him angry. When I do this, he says you don't love me.
Jocelyn: That is so challenging.
Janet: Here is a phrase that I use to help people to think through "Biblical love provides an
environment that makes it easy for the other person to do that the right thing."
Jocelyn: That's very helpful.
Janet: That's Biblical love. And sometimes it means encouraging someone who is doing the right
thing. Sometimes it means helping someone who's weak so they can do the right thing.
Sometimes it means rebuking.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: That is love.
Jocelyn: That is love if you're pointing them toward righteousness,
Janet: If that's my goal. So there is nothing wimpy about Biblical love. It means saying to that
wife, when your husband behaves in that way, love doesn't just ignore it because he's the man I'm
trying to submit. Love says, "honey, I love you too much to let that go without saying to you that
displeases God." Now, it's not "don't you be talking to me that way?" No, it's hard. Like I have to
die to self because here's what I had. I've had more than one woman say to me, he's going to get
so mad. If I do that. I know love to your own hurt. That's right. Love is hard. There is nothing
easy or wimpy about that kind of love. It is super natural. It means I have to be more concerned
about your standing before God, than my standing before you. And I need the help with the
Spirit. I can't do it. I cannot do this
Jocelyn: And real love. Jesus' has kind of love was never about keeping people happy with Him.
People were unhappy with Him all the time. And He continued loving them, even in the middle
of that. So love is not just making people pleased with you, keeping people happy with you. It is
actually giving of yourself to serve them so that they're in the best position to have a life filled
with righteous.
Janet: Yes. And thinking long-term when they stand before the Lord.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: My heart's desires that they give a good account, but I have to tell you sometimes it's not
my heart's desire right after the way you've treated me.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: I hope God gives you what for, when you stand there and then to go, okay, that's selfish.
That's not loving to my own hurt. You have hurt me. I'm done, but that's not Biblical love. And
what I love is when you taste that there's so much freedom there. Because now my love is not
tied to you experiencing it and agreeing with me.
Jocelyn: And your response. Yeah.
Janet: Because I, and I have to talk with wives about that. And people who have to confront their
friends who are saying, if you were my real friend, you would be encouraging my happiness.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: How about. Your holiness. So I want that for you, even if you don't. I just recently talked
with somebody else and said, this is an opportunity for you to say to your friend. I love you so
much that I am willing to risk you hating me by sharing with you that you need to repent.
Jocelyn: And aren't you so thankful to have Jesus's example in John 13 of loving people
outrageously and seeing what anguish He felt in the middle of that. It's helpful to know that
example because loving this way is hard and it is painful and it's not going to feel like butterflies
and fairytales. At times, loving this way is going to be difficult and it's going to be painful, but
I'm so thankful that we have the example, especially in John 13, of what it looked like for Jesus
to persevere in the middle of it, for this joy that was set up in front of Him.
Janet: Yes. Yes, because He specifically says when they talk about Judas was going to betray
Him and He knew it, He was deeply distressed. Yes, that's a setting and I can still love.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: Because more important than how I feel is loving you.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: That's amazing, but there is freedom there because I can do that. Now, I need the help of
the Spirit. I can't do it without the help of the Spirit, but I will have the help of the Spirit if I'm
God's and I'm choosing to love that way, He's going to help me. I'm not concerned about whether
or not the Spirit's going to do that. And I can go to bed with a clear conscious and a quiet soul,
no matter how the other person responded when I know that was what I did. And that was why.
It's not it didn't work because he didn't repent. It didn't work because he's mad at me. It didn't
work because my friend now says I don't really care about her. If I love toward righteousness,
that's all I was asked to do. I'm not asked to be responsible for the results.
Jocelyn: And if you're loving toward righteousness and you lay your head down, you're not
going to be. Looking back over the day, scrambling to try to figure out how you can get everyone
to be happy with you, which is often what happens at night when your goal for love is wrong. If
your goal loving is to get them to love you back or to be happy with you or to be friend or
whatever. You're going to lay in bed obsessing, stressing, about how to make sure that happens.
But if what you're trying to make sure happens is loving like Jesus loved. Then you are
accomplishing the goal. No matter how the results turn out, which is so freeing to not feel like I
have to spin my wheels, forcing things to happen. What needs to happen is me loving the way
that I have been loved by Jesus and His example.
Janet: Yes. And it's Psalm 131 wrestling my soul down and not involving myself in matters, too
great for me. Getting people to like me, that's a matter of way too great for me. But as a natural
people pleaser, when I lay down, that's the battle. I did what God said, and now they're mad at
me. And now they're saying, they're telling all their friends that I'm self-righteous and God.
Okay. So then here's the wrestling down. Okay. Lord was I self-righteous?
Jocelyn: Examination.
Janet: Okay.
Jocelyn: We want to be humble.
Janet: Yes. So was I self-righteous? No, I didn't even want to talk to her, but I knew I have to
because I love her. Okay. So I can think through that. And then know that's a sweet smelling
fragrance before the Lord. Then I can wrestle my soul down and go. Okay. And now
Jocelyn: We're in a good place.
Janet: I can stop thinking about me. And I can pray for her.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: I can think about her.
Jocelyn: Which is further application of this whole concept of love. So how do you continue to
give of yourself for their benefit, even in those moments when you're laying in bed obsessing
through whether you did it, right?
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: The next step is to keep loving her.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Just like Jesus kept loving His.
Janet: Yes. Then I get the privilege of not, how do I, what do they think about me? What did
that? Now, I can say I've wrestled that down and now I get to think of them. And there, there is
such, such freedom there. And to know when others see that kind of love. Talk about a bright
light that will draw people to Him.
Jocelyn: Absolutely.
Janet: And what a privilege
Jocelyn: It is so supernatural. It doesn't belong in this world. This world is self-centered,
self-focused, self obsession. And so anyone who doesn't live that way is going to stick out like a
bright candle in a dark room. It doesn't look like anyone around them.
Janet: And that one of the Biblical examples I like, we won't have time to read the book of Ruth.
But in the book of Ruth, you see, Naomi and her husband and sons leaving the country for a
famine. Her sons and a husband all die. She's alone with her two daughter-in-laws who are from
another culture. And she's now going to come back home. Her daughter-in-law Ruth to her own
hurt says "I will be faithful to you, Naomi." Naomi has nothing to offer her.
Jocelyn: She doesn't even want her.
Janet: No.
Jocelyn: She tells her to go.
Janet: She tells her to go back home. I am committed to you and to your God. And we're told in
the Bible that that was an example of hesed, of giving out of the givers character, out of an
affectionate desire to cause she loved Naomi and gave all that she had worked hard when she
came back. So she could support Naomi. Like all that she did motivated by deep, personal care at
her own expense. And later in that book, Boaz, the man, she ultimately marries says, "May you
be blessed by Yahweh. My daughter, you have made this last kindness" pursuing to marry Boaz
for right Biblical reasons instead of a young stud "greater than the first." So your kindness in
this, your hesed in this is even greater than your first hesed. So she is such an example to that.
But John 13, Obviously there's our perfect example. And we've been talking about that
Jocelyn: Excellent example. And if, and I would say that if this is a concept that is new or
difficult to understand, what I have really found helpful is listening to the New Living
Translation of the Bible out loud. While I do things, especially the book of John, because it talks
about Jesus constantly throughout that book. But especially chapters 13 through 17, if you would
like to learn how to live this way, listening and reading and imagining what it would have been
like for Jesus to actually take this big, big concept and live His daily life with it. Would be really
helpful because He lived a real life. That was one of the things that was so amazing and about
Him being completely God. He added on a human body. Like He didn't just theorize this. He
lived it with weakness in His human body, just like we have weakness in our human body, with
the same kind of emotions that we have, obviously for Him, never with sin.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: But His example is critical and learning how to do this in our real life. It's not just a
theory. It's not just something that we think about. It has to have flesh on it. And it has to have a
life that supports it.
Janet: A very common counseling assignment that I've been giving in the last few years, because
I would say for maybe everybody that I've counseled, I know it's a big word, but I think so. At
least part of why we're struggling is a wrong view of God.
Jocelyn: Oh yeah.
Janet: And one of the ways to reorient that is sometimes Matthew, but usually John, I will ask
them to read a chapter a day and write down what is Jesus like just in this chapter? Why should I
trust Him?
Jocelyn: That's cool.
Janet: So they may have already heard it before, but now they're looking, what do I see here?
What do I see? Well I see He's powerful? It says, but with His Word, He created everything. I see
this, I see that. And then I see. He chose to become human. And then I see the compassion and
then I see He was always so patient. And then I see. So I'm reorienting my view of God to what
God says about Him.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: Which I'm going to see hesed.
Jocelyn: Using His own Word.
Janet: I'm going to see hesed. Why should I trust Him? Because at that point I'm not trying to get
them to do, I want them to revel, but I think a great third question as I'm listening to the New
Living Translation and I'm listening to it and being washed by it is to say, what would that look
like for me?
Jocelyn: Yes. How do I live this out?
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: What are some ways that the people around me could see Jesus example of love being
lived out with my two hands, with my mouth, with the way that I think about things, with my
feet, the places that I go. This is real, not theoretical. This is applicable.
Janet: So let's talk about that. Let's talk about just some scenarios, some practical application
there's way more than we could do, but let's at least do something. In a conversation I had
recently with someone, a very common thing came up. Basically, do I say something or not?
That was the question she was asking me. On the one hand, I need to say what is true and not be
a wet blanket.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: On the other hand, well, sometimes I'm just trying to get everybody to listen to me and it's
all about me. So how do I decide? Frequently, they're trying to figure out the balance of when to
speak and when not to speak. And I get the phrase, but really it's how do I get off the scale of it's
about me?
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And so in a scenario, that's how I'm going to decide. For example, one ditch I'm afraid to
upset anybody. So I agree with everything. That was me growing up. I was afraid of everything
and everybody, and I had opinions, but you weren't going to know what they were. So, I mean I
can remember going to a restaurant and talking so quietly that the waiter misheard me, brought
me the wrong food. And I wouldn't say anything. No, I'm not going to say anything. So would it
be wrong to communicate that? No. And it's my own fault. Like they couldn't hear me, but my
fear, I don't want anybody upset with me. I don't want rejection. So I don't want you to be able to
reject me, to make fun of me, or to not be pleased with me. So I'm not going to speak. Okay.
That's a really bad reason not to speak. Or how about I'm no doormat. I know what I'm talking
about. I need to be heard. I have a right to be heard and actually, if you would all just listen to
me, the world be a better place cause I clearly know how things ought to be. You know? So
Jocelyn: Talk about extremes.
Janet: My own example. Again, I wanted to be that when you're over here, that's what I thought
was the answer, which of course is still about self one's about. It's both about what do people
think of me?
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: And I have to protect myself or I have to be aggressive, but it was still all about me. And
I'm going to date myself. Most of the people listening won't know who this is, but there was a
rock star her name was Pat Benatar. I don't know if you know who she is. No, but of course you
don't. Of course, you don't. But she was my height. So she was little. I'm five one for those
who've never seen me. She was a very tiny rockstar. So I could relate to her in that way. And my
favorite song of hers was "Hit Me with Your Best Shot."
Jocelyn: Okay. I do know that one.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: We roller skate to it.
Janet: There you go "Hit Me with Your Best Shot." And my thing is I want to be strong like that.
I want it to be, I don't even care.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Hit me with your best shot and I will just come back. So that was my desire to not be the
people pleaser was to be Pat Benatar.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: So is it selfish to speak like Pat Benatar or is it selfish not to speak? And I would say in
those scenarios, yes.
Jocelyn: Both. Both are selfish.
Janet: It's not about speak or not speak it's about am I, is my love focused on me or on you.
Jocelyn: What is motivating the speech?
Janet: So it's not a matter of balancing the ditches. It's getting off that road of self. I'm not afraid
of what you think of me. So I'm not afraid to speak if that's what would love you the most, but I
don't need to speak. I don't need everybody to know my opinion all the time, because what's
more important is loving you. Then over time, I'm going to grow to be more discerning. When
do I speak? And when do I not speak? I'm not doing it to be affirmed. I'm not clamoring. Out of
love for God and out of love for you, I'm going to speak if it would be helpful and loving.
Jocelyn: And the way you speak will be helpful and loving
Janet: If that's why.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: Yep. Yeah, no, that's exactly right. So if that means I need to confront you, if that means I
need to encourage you, or if that means I need to listen to you and not share my thoughts. So I
know in counseling, we do awkward things like, if you battle the idol of I need to be heard. Then
I have said to people "this week, you may not share any opinion about anything, unless someone
specifically asks you, so it would be weird if you won't?"
Jocelyn: That's so that's a hard assignment.
Janet: Yeah. Especially if that's your you know.
Jocelyn: If that's your gig.
Janet: Yeah. And then not because it's always wrong to speak.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: But we're gonna kill that.
Jocelyn: Just because we need to be aware of how often that is why we speak.
Janet: Yes. And then to decide later, when should I speak, you know, or. If my fear of man means
I don't typically, then I need to prayerfully think about what would loving you look like right
now, what would I say? And then I need to choose to say it. So again, because I love you, I want
to make it easier for you to give a good account. So I get off the pendulum of self either way.
That's how I have to think about when to speak or when not to speak.
Jocelyn: I love it. The topic of love this big spiritual rich theologically deep topic, applied to
communication to our mouth.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: I'm a communication major. That was my major in college. And I've often thought, Oh,
why couldn't we have learned this kind of communication in college? I needed this way more
than I needed some of the other stuff that I learned. One of the applications that I thought of
about this topic is the topic of addiction. And for most of my professional life, I worked with
women who were in one form of addiction or another. And if we're going to be totally honest, I
kind of feel like. We humans are really good at being addicted to the things that we think are
going to make us happy.
Janet: Absolutely. There's just certain things. Society focuses on more with addiction. We all
battle.
Jocelyn:So like I helped a lot of people, but I have my own things that I struggle to be honest and
vulnerable about. But when I think about this topic of love. So John 13 kind of love where Jesus
was just pouring Himself out for the benefit of everyone around Him consistently choosing to
speak when it was right. Not speak when it wasn't right. Teaching, encouraging, loving
outrageously. What would it be? What would my experience of fighting and addiction be like, if
I was really convinced of that kind of love. And when I'm caught in a sin where I'm tangled up in
it, like an addiction, I wouldn't try to hide it. I would allow it to be open and I would allow it to
be seen because if Jesus really loved me and that kind of John 13 kind of love. He already knows
the depths I've been willing to go to get what I really believed would help me to be able to live
life. And that example that you shared in the previous episode, what would devastate me if I lost
it? In addictions what fuels me to go deeper into my addiction and create even craftier tools, is
this imagined devastation that losing the thing that I'm confident will help me. So I keep on
doing this addictive behavior because I can not imagine living with whatever it is that that tool is
providing for me. So all these addictions, we give them so much value. They're just the tools that
we developed that would give us this thing that we think we could not possibly live without. So
I'd be devastated at losing what, like the relaxation that pot gives me, or I'd be devastating at
giving up this self-directed vengeance of self comfort that self-harm gives me.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: But if I am convinced of John 13 kind of love. I can understand that when Jesus sees me
worshiping myself through any of those addictions, using all of those disgusting, dehumanizing
tools: drugs, alcohol, self harm, illicit sex, whatever, whatever, whatever your addiction is, the
very reason. I was willing to use them, like I'm worshiping my own sense of justice or I'm
needing my own comfort or I'm pursuing some form of happiness that I think will make me want
to stay alive. He still poured out Himself for me while I was dehumanizing myself. And pursuing
tools that were defiling me. If I saw and believed that kind of love, it would swallow up my own
self love that fuels my addictions. The struggle then with addictions becomes like you've built
some pretty solid habits for yourself of how to deal with life using that tool. It takes, you know, it
takes some
Janet: But it would motivate you and motivate you to do that work.
Jocelyn:The understanding of Jesus' love would motivate me to kill my own sin every day.
Janet: Because you would see it's inferior.
Jocelyn: I would see that it's inferior and that my own attempts to love myself were so pathetic
and empty and left me constantly needing more deeper, stronger, whatever.
Janet: It destroys you. Your love will destroy you. And it takes me to the Gospel Primer, the one
that's "Liberation from Self-love."
Jocelyn: Oh yeah.
Janet: I love that. If I really. What's going to liberate me from, self-love not, I'm a martyr. I don't
care about me. How about knowing that there's Somebody who loves you better than you love
you? And with an addiction your love is killing you.
Jocelyn: Right, it's that uncomfortable place still that we talked about in last episode is like, it
just wigs me out to know that Someone sees me that terrible and still loves me.
Janet: I can't imagine it. It's uncomfortable.
Jocelyn: It's so uncomfortable.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah. So how about a wife? So you can tell, I do a lot of counseling with, wives.
How should then a wife respond to a husband's sinful behavior. So number one, we all sin,
husbands and wives. I just talked to the wives and I'm not talking behavior that just kind of
irritates me. This is sin.
Jocelyn: Really hard stuff.
Janet: This is sin. Here's some options, I guess she could say nothing and stew. We see that a lot.
Um, give the cold shoulder until she can't anymore and then she can blow up. She can tell
others, cause I got to get it out and then I get to just gossip. I see this a lot isolate emotionally, so
it won't hurt anymore.
Jocelyn: Yeah. It does seem like it might work, you know?
Janet: Yeah. And if your goal is no pain, it might.
Jocelyn: Might work.
Janet: It might um, and quite frankly, I've done all those.
Jocelyn: So have I, I was just looking at the list, thinking like, well, I am not qualified to speak
on this.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah. Well, who is right? And I would say all of that is on that pendulum of self
and I call that pendulum, self pity to self-righteousness, but all self. Poor me. I'm amazing. Poor
me. I'm amazing. And those are the ways that I respond. Yeah.
Jocelyn: How confusing for our families.
Janet: And Biblical love says get off that pendulum. And I need to think about what would it
look like right now in the midst of my husband's sin to love God. So part of that is believe His
love for me. That's one way I love Him right in that moment. I believe You love me the way You
say You do. So now I don't have to protect me. I'm free to focus on loving my husband. What
would that look like? So I will communicate. But in reality, here's then what that tends to look
like, especially if I've been holding it in. And then I say, my counselor said, I need to
communicate the truth and do I have to speak the truth. God is a God of truth. So now I do it, but
not out of love for Him because I'm sick of it.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: So we're back on the self- righteous scale.
Jocelyn: Not taking it one more second.
Janet: Yes. I'm on the self-righteous scale. I don't want to put up with that anymore. I'm hurt. I'm
angry. I got to get it off my chest. You deserve it. I'm going to give it all to you. I need you to
understand how your behavior impacts me. I need you to change and here's a red flag for you. If
you're saying I need, and the next word is not Jesus. You're going to, you got a problem.
Jocelyn: Then it's not Biblical love.
Janet: Exactly.
Jocelyn: That's not Biblical love motivating that.
Janet: But that will come out a lot. I just need you to know, I just need you to stop. I just need,
and it's like actually
Jocelyn: Remember from our Joy episode "And then I'll be happy"
Janet: So what does that look like? Yes. I have women say this to me too. You're right, Janet. I
have to work on my own bitterness and anger, but in the meantime, what do I say to him? And
here's what I have to say. You have to say nothing to him till you deal with the bitterness and
anger.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Matthew 7 is pretty clear. Get the log out of your own eye first, then you'll see clearly.
Now your motive can be because I love you.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: I must say, I remember talking years ago talking to a wife whose husband was involved in
some pretty bad stuff. And, um, she looked at me and she goes, you're telling me, I can't say
anything to him about it until I deal with my sin. And I said,
Jocelyn: Exactly.
Janet: Yes, that's kind of what I'm saying. She goes, it's going to be pretty quiet. Like I know. So
let that motivate you to deal with your sin.
Jocelyn: And sister we've all been there.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah. And I, an example in my own life that still surprises me. Years ago in our
marriage, Brent and I, I don't know something happened. We were in a problem of some kind
and I was really angry with him. And I really, really, really, really believed he was 90% at fault
and I really wanted to go confront the fire out of him. But here's what I also knew. Get the log
out of your own eye. I knew too much truth, quite frankly.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: It was a roadblock between me and my sin, which was great. So I remember, I don't know
why the bathroom I'm guessing the kids were little. I got on the bathroom. On the floor in the
bathroom. And I'm like, okay, I know that right now I am being entitled or whatever it was, and
that's wrong, but he shouldn't, it it, no, no, no. I just need, it took me probably literally 20
minutes on my knees.
Jocelyn: What an argument.
Janet: I know to have with me and with God. And until I was finally, I thought were, regardless
of anything else that happens, I need to clear my own conscience before God. I need to confess. I
need to truly agree with Him, not to say, I know I'm supposed to. And I wrestled my soul down,
took a long time. So with a quiet soul, it was like, I know that that was wrong. I need to handle
that with him. And now after doing that, I will be in a position to love him by sharing his fault.
And I got up and realized I had nothing to say to him. He hadn't done anything wrong. And I
didn't know that I really, really, really, really, really, really, really believed I was sinful, but he
was more so. But I couldn't deal with it until I got the log out of my eye and I got the log out of
my eye and I literally had nothing to say. And that was so good for my soul to go look how easily
deceived you are. You really thought that it would be righteous for you to share with him that
this isn't right. You, so couldn't see. So we have to do that first. Oh, well, glad I could live that
for you.
Jocelyn: Thanks for being so bad. I wish we could relate. Oh goodness. So, another way that I
sometimes think about this is my ability and willingness to be persistent. And when I was
listening to you, explain in John, the John 13 kind of love where Jesus just over and over and
over was loving and loving and loving to His hurt. Even while people were getting ready to deny
Him, while Judas was getting ready to be betray Him, like thinking about what that looked like
for Jesus to wash Judas' feet, knowing what was getting ready to happen. I think about. I well,
like immediately, just because of my self focus, I think just immediately thought of like how
unable I would be to do that.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: I do a lot of exercises because I have a kind of a funky back. And so I'm trying to keep
it healthy. And sometimes when I'm like, holding this pose and my muscles are starting to burn
what motivates me is the knowledge that I only have to hold it for three more seconds.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: And so I'm telling myself, you can do it. You can do it. It's only three more seconds.
And I was just so struck when we were thinking about the John 13. Living out of love that Jesus
didn't say, okay, just love him for a couple more minutes. Then you can go back to thinking
about yourself. He never, He never motivated Himself with the fact that His need to love people
would be done soon. Loving people is who He is.
Janet: Yes. He doesn't want it to be over.
Jocelyn: He doesn't want it to be over even though that kind of love was so costly for Him. And I
am an inherently selfish person. I, I really think about myself more than anyone else. I don't want
that to be true, but it is practically.
Janet: Fellow traveler.
Jocelyn:Yeah. So I think like when I am outrageously loving someone. Is what's motivating me
that it will soon be done and I can go back to thinking about myself because if that's what's
motivating me, it's absolutely sinful. That's a wicked way to think about love. That soon it will
be done. So I can go back to thinking about myself. Thinking about myself is the absolute wrong
thing. Like that pendulum that you said, thinking about myself and my own what I'm getting out
of the situation isn't the point of Biblical love. Biblical love is about how can I forever give up
myself to serve the people that are around me to love them more deeply to make their experience
more likely that they would pursue righteousness. And so it's been really good for me to think
about long suffering love, not just loving so that I can go back to doing what I want, which is
whatever I want to do at the moment. Just mostly not doing
Janet: Without guilt.
Jocelyn: Because I loved, I did my thing. And so I appreciate what you said about really having a
battle with your mind because that kind of love is hard.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: I have a friend who I have had the privilege of walking through life with, and her last
several years have been pretty terrible. Very, just some devastating medical diagnosis. And an
event happened a couple of weekends ago that was just so striking in how we can get into a bad
place if our head is not correct with this kind of love. And so I asked her permission to share this
with you and she said I was free to share as much as I wanted. So the question in my mind starts
with what would your life look like if you knew that tomorrow you were going to die? That's
what Jesus was doing in John 13.
Janet: That's exactly. Literally what He was doing.
Jocelyn: Literally, I will die tomorrow. And just, like you said, like what would that day have
looked like for us?
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: It would have been like, mother's day, my birthday and every Christmas on steroids,
everyone should be catering to me and worship me.
Janet: After what I'm going to do. Yep.
Jocelyn: So the way this worked with my friend is that she has been struggling some very terrible
diagnosis over the last couple of years. And we were very concerned that one of the bad
diagnosis might be back. And so she had an appointment on Monday to go get checked for that
diagnosis and the knowledge that on Monday, she might find out that the cancer was back,
completely derailed her for the weeks leading up to it. And it was so difficult thinking that I
might be getting a death sentence on Monday. We already thought we had a death sentence. God
conquered it, but we might be back in this place.
Janet: And I can't do this again.
Jocelyn: And I can't do this again. I can't go through this.
Janet: Totally.
Jocelyn: And so, when she, wasn't thinking about how could she go into that situation with those
doctors and do nothing but love them, look for the ways that they needed to be encouraged or
supported or think God custom chose this situation so that I would have to be in those offices at
that moment for the reason of demonstrating Jesus' love. Her focus was folded in on herself, she
was afraid. Rightfully so. We understand. It's scary to have a diagnosis like that, but our focus
was very inward and she was only able to think about how scared she was. But as she took some
time to reorient herself to what Biblical love looks like.
Janet: And how she has been loved, she can trust the God asking this of her.
Jocelyn: She can live that out to other people, regardless of what that diagnosis will be. And I
had never thought about that for myself before, outside of the explanation of John 13, that I've
heard you give before is: what would my last day on earth look like? And I think that's maybe a
good way to kind of wrap up our applications is what would your last day look like if you knew
that you were living tomorrow, would you seek out to love that kind of way? Would you
outrageously pour out yourself so that somebody else was in a position where they could
experience God's love and be urged toward God's righteousness? So I'm thankful for her
allowing me to share that example. It was a tough weekend. It was a tough couple of weeks as
she got herself ready for that test that God allowed her to experience. And showed her ways that
she needed to grow in living out Jesus' kind of love.
Janet: And in that He was drawing His heart close to her while she was not doing it. Well, this is
what I love, because what I would hate is to come to the end of this. Cause we've talked about
some really hard, supernatural ways to love and for women to walk away from this going I'm
trying, but I'm not doing it. Now I feel even worse. Like I'm loved like this and I'm not loving the
way I should. And now what's wrong with me and well, everything quite frankly. And that's
okay. Like the same heart that Jesus showed His disciples is the heart He shows us, even when
we're trying to grow in this love and failing. We will never, that's why I wanted us to spend the
first week just saying just revel in the fact that He did it in.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And now I will grow in doing it, but I will never be it. And the goal is not to be Jesus.
Jocelyn: Yeah. It's not perfection.
Janet: It's to just growing. So, how do I do that? So number one, if I'm really thinking about love
at this level, it should draw me to my knees. I can't do it. I cannot do it. I need His help. I need
His power. I need His mind and He offers all of it. So to think I'm so busy, loving people, I don't
have time to spend with God. That doesn't even make sense.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: I can't love people.
Jocelyn: You have to be connected to the source of love, to love this way.
Janet: Yes. Then I would say, taste and see. You know, when I act in faith. In counseling, I say it
this way, we go through the Gospel Primer usually, and I have them, part two is the actual
Gospel. And I have that. We talk through the parts of the Gospel that are hard for them to believe
are true. And usually it's about God's love. And so I will say to them, I want you to pretend this
week that you actually believe this one sentence, and I want you to act the way you would act if
you believed it. And what I'm really telling them is don't go by your emotions.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Choose to believe. But because we don't really know what it means to not listen to our
emotions. We know what pretending is. So I will say, imagine, pretend you believed it. What do
you think would be different? And one of them said, I probably wouldn't even get mad if
somebody cut me off in traffic. Probably not. So I'm going to tell you don't respond that way. So
put somewhere, "what if I really believe this" and then do that act like you do believe it because
that's choosing to believe it. Then you get to taste and see that it is the most satisfying. Then you
get to come back and go that was actually free. Yes. Yes. Saturate your mind with God's hesed
for you. That's the only way.
Jocelyn: We're so convinced that our version of love is what we need, but we're going to feel the
most satisfied when it's Jesus's version of love that we're reveling in.
Janet: Yes. And that is going to help us when we discuss next week's topic. So let me first say
thanks for joining us again today. And as always, you can find a link to this transcript and find all
the resources that we've mentioned in our show notes. But next week I really do hope you'll
come back. Next episode, we are every other week for those trying to figure out when we come
out every other Friday. We're going to discuss the incredibly uncomfortable topic of unjust
suffering. The fact that we have received God's hesed the fact that He loves me that way does not
mean I will not suffer. And it does not mean that all of my suffering will be just. Just ask Joseph,
you know, but His hesed does impact how I view it and how I respond to it.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Listen, as we discuss this next time.
To keep from missing any future episodes, please sign up for our newsletter on our webpage
joyfuljourneypod.com. From there you can also subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, or
Spotify. You can also visit us on our Facebook page or Instagram at Joyful Journey Podcast. If
you have questions or comments for us, you can email us at
joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible
Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to
receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money
for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their
website.
