Human Sexuality
Everywhere we turn, the world is bombarding us with ideas about sexuality. How should we as Christians be thinking about sex?
This week Janet and Jocelyn tackle the tough subject of human sexuality. Christians often tend to shy away from this issue, while the world talks about it constantly. How should our Biblical worldview shape the way we view sexuality? What does God have to say about it, and how can we honor Him while living in a fallen world
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Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Resources
Resources:
Books/PDFs
What’s the Difference? Manhood and Womanhood Defined According to the Bible - John Piper
This Momentary Marriage - John Piper
What Does the Bible really Teach about Homosexuality? - Kevin DeYoung
Podcasts
Purpose: The Creation Mandate - Joyful Journey
Dangers of Living Without a Purpose - Joyful Journey
Unjust Suffering - Joyful Journey
Truth in Love: The Unbiblical Nature of Reparative Therapy (feat. Heath Lambert)
Truth in Love: Religious Liberty in Counseling (feat. Todd Sorrell)
Truth in Love West Lafayette Ordinance 31-21 (feat. Steve Viars)
Tuesday February 8th, 2022 Albert Mohler - The Briefing
Websites
Find a Biblical Counselor - ACBC
Lafayette Citizens for Freedom
Faith Biblical Counseling Training Conferences
Extra
The Ties that Bind Album 58 - Adventures in Odyssey
Transcript:
Janet: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Alexandra: I just want to make it as totally simple and no-brainer as possible for ladies to see that the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy. Typically, I’ll be joined by either Jocelyn or Alexandra, but for our first full episode listen as all three of us discuss the topic of joy.
Janet: Hi, welcome back. This is Janet. Once again, here with my co-host Jocelyn.
Jocelyn: Hey there.
Janet: And today we're going to be talking about a topic that may not be something you really want your littles to hear, because it just might be a little too old for them to understand. So if you're in the habit of listening to this podcast in the school drop-off lane or wherever your kids might be around, this one might be better to listen to alone or with your spouse, maybe for the first time.
Jocelyn: We do think there's a lot of important information in this episode that you need to know and understand, and eventually share with your kids and the setting and timing that you believe is wise and loving. Today we're going to be talking about sexuality specifically what God says about human sexuality, and we have a lot planned for this episode. It's going to be probably a long one, and it's going to be full. At the beginning we're just going to kind of set the stage for where culture currently is on this topic. Some of you might be super in the know already about this, but others of you may not really know what's going on in spaces that you don't frequent. And so it's important that we just kind of set the stage where things are to start with. It's important that we know the context that our loved ones are functioning in. Because how we communicate about this is really important and we want you to be helpful and loving.
Janet: Yeah. We're going to do that for a little bit. And then we're going to talk about what we actually both really love to talk about. What does God say in his word to his people about this topic? And spoiler alert, it's always better and more hopeful.
Jocelyn: Praise God for that. Then we're going to finish the episode today with some really practical tips to parents and churches about how they can interact with kids especially, and young people in a way that hopefully represents God's well, but it's also really sympathetic and loving to those who are living in a culture that's saturated with sexuality, especially sexuality being a tool that you use to create yourself in your own image, according to your own thoughts about it. We're also going to ask you to be involved in a very specific action step that's related to this topic at the end. So stay tuned until the end.
Janet: One of the things that I just want to do right away while we're setting the stage is to talk about the attitude that we're going to be bringing to this discussion. Because we really want to approach this potentially firestorm topic in a way, that would honor the Lord. You know, I listened to the pourover podcast about news, and I love that he's constantly saying the way you disagree is just as important as your content.
Jocelyn: Yeah, that's true.
Janet: And I agree with that. We want to talk about what God talks about, but we want to do it the way he talks about it. And we're actually both very comfortable and confident believing and acting about this from what we've learned from scripture. But we also want to approach this kindly and humbly.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: We don't believe this topic is one that deserves our prideful attempts to shame or guilt people, or think that we're better. We just want to let God's word speak to us.
Jocelyn: Absolutely.
Janet: And there may be some who are listening. I would imagine,
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Who are either struggling with their own sexuality, have children, loved ones around them, struggling with theirs. And here is our hope that you would first see the beauty of God's way.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And then throughout the episode, we'll mention resources. We'll certainly mention a lot in the end and they'll be in our show notes. There is so much hope to be able to reorder your lives around what God has said.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: So if you're new to the joyful journey podcast, you might not know us very well. Jocelyn and I are very different. But one thing that's similar about us is first we're both sinners saved by the grace of God alone with our own disordered desires.
Jocelyn: Absolutely.
Janet: I wish I could say only in my past, but even with my own current disordered desires. And we're both ACBC certified biblical counselors and we both doing it for quite a while.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: So first, why don't you get us started Jocelyn set the stage for us. What's the current landscape in 2022 on this topic of human sexuality?
Jocelyn: Well, I'm gonna be summarizing today for the sake of brevity, but I'm also including a longer fact sheet in the show notes for those who want to dig in more on this topic and know, a little bit more intricately what's going on. According to a Gallup poll based on more than 15,000 interviews that was conducted throughout 2020 with Americans age 18 or older. In the us 5.6% of adults identify anywhere on the LGBTQ spectrum. And that number just three years prior was 4.5. So you can see a 1.1% increase in those who identify on the LGBTQ spectrum. And so within that 5.6%, there's some really interesting statistics that is important for us to understand. The majority of LGBTQ identifying Americans say that they are bisexual. That's 54.6% of the 5.6. So that's 3.1% of the total Americans. While only 5.6% of the overall American population identify as LGBTQ, more than one in 10 US high school youth, or 10% identifies as lesbian, gay, or bisexual. So of that 10% of high school youth, 10% of the high school population among them, 75% are female and 77% identify as bisexual. So we can see the younger you go, the higher, the percentage of those who self identify as LGBTQ, and of that, a large majority are female and a large majority are identifying as bisexual. Gen Zers are far more likely than older generations to identify as something other than heterosexual. One in six adults or 16.7% in the gen Z population identify somewhere on the LGBTQ spectrum.
Janet: That's so interesting. And I just wonder why that might be. Is it that older generations were heterosexual and suddenly younger generations, just aren't? What do you think are some of the factors that are contributing to that change in American population?
Jocelyn: I think there's a lot of things going on, and obviously it would be unwise for us to boil it down to three absolutes, but here are a couple of things that I'm seeing out there in the landscape. I have my eye on a lot of different things to kind of see what's going on in the world. One of the things that I'm noticing is in the LGBT community, there is a really purposeful push at normalizing homonormativity, which just means. That as a community, the LGBT group is pushing for homosexuality and alternate sexuality statuses to be the norm. And they're offering community for a population that already feels disenfranchised and lonely. So we don't have to go into it super huge in-depth here, but there is a very purposeful agenda behind the LGBT community. They do a lot of awareness projects, and in specific in June is pride month. Pride day is June 28th. That whole month, as, especially in the population of the community where I hang out June is about pride and everyone, even if you're not homosexual, everyone seems to celebrate that love is love. You can love whoever you want, and it's a big push with an agenda behind it. I also think that internet technology is really driving the increasing rates of those who identify in the LGBTQ spectrum. Technology supports a ton of freedom with very few consequences. And the interconnectivity of cell phones, and also with the activism that the LGBT community on social media, like YouTube and Tic-Tok, Instagram. It makes it super easy to explore all sorts of things, especially alternate views of sexuality, really with very few restrictions.
Janet: You know, when we're younger, we have all kinds of questions and we're trying to figure things out. Around puberty a lot of things are confusing. And to think of that mentality having access to
Jocelyn: Unrestricted access.
Janet: Unrestricted, that's actually terrifying.
Jocelyn: I actually think another thing is adding to this in 2022, and that's the existential questions that were brought up because of COVID and also the huge amounts of time that people had on their hand during quarantine and during school closures. I think that mix of those existential questions that were raised during a really scary pandemic and health crisis, along with schools being closed and work being off during the pandemic, just left people with a lot of free time at home that gave them the opportunity to examine everything about life more critically. Which is not bad. We should be thinking about what is the purpose of life. But a lot of people are asking why do we live our lives the way that we do. And one of those topics that was discussed and explored was the gender binary.
Janet: And again, those are great questions. Yes. It's when I'm doing it in a way without a lot of guidance where that might lead.
Jocelyn: Or a source of truth.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: The fourth thing that is really impacting where we are today is the purposeful, positive presence of the LGBT community on media. Young adults have never known a time when the LGBT community was not proactively and positively depicted on television and in movies. So historically portrayals of anyone that was lesbian or gay or bisexual would have been negative. But since the nineties, there has been an increase in the positive portrayals of the LGBT community within mainstream media. And that's just like normal TV like CBS, or something like that. So LGBT communities are taking a really proactive stand in defining their own culture with the primary goal of achieving positive visibility. So their goal has
Janet: I think they've been very successful.
Jocelyn: They've been very successful. Their goal has been to establish alternate sexuality as a norm, and then to provide information on that topic. And what's not often understood is that the level of the LGBT presence in the media does not necessarily represent reality. It's almost always turned into virtue signaling.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: So you have a company that's saying we want to show our support for the LGBTQ community by making characters that it would fall within that spectrum. But the amount of those characters does not reflect reality for most people. And then finally, one of the things that I'm personally just seeing with my own eyes as our farm was active in our community, especially during the month of June, was that corporate support for the LGBTQ lifestyle, really skews the public understanding of how widespread the lifestyle is.
Janet: Making it feel bigger than it is.
Jocelyn: Right. It makes it feel more accepted and more real. And when people see that visibility, they think, oh, everyone is living in this alternate way. But really there's a little bit of controversy about it, which I found interesting. And I actually found this by reading on some LGBTQ websites. They were speaking about this directly. So there's this thing called pink money. And it is essentially the amount of money that is accessible, that the buying power that's represented by the LGBT community. And often they're not married. They don't have children. They're rarely highly trained. They're in corporate jobs. They have a lot of income. And
Janet: A lot more disposable income.
Jocelyn: A lot more disposable income. So companies in an effort to support the LGBT lifestyle are also saying, Hey, support us because we support you. Then there's even some controversy about it by especially advertising to the gay community. They're getting a lot more of sales money from that community. So I think that the corporate support, especially that you see during June is really skewing the public's understanding of how widespread sexuality and alternate sexuality really is in the real world.
Janet: And how that is based on the fact that the corporate, businessman is really philosophically behind them? And how much of that is
Jocelyn: We just want your money.
Janet: We going to do whatever we're going to do to make more money?
Jocelyn: Right. Because we're,
Janet: we're a business.
Jocelyn: We're a business. That's what we do.
Janet: So sexuality from a biblical perspective is one of the most stable and solid topics. I mean, starting in Genesis, going through the whole rest of the Bible. But in our time, sexuality is seen now is suddenly very fluid. So, what do you think right now are just the hot topics that you're seeing?
Jocelyn: Again, this will be discussed more thoroughly in the fact sheet that's in the show notes, but here are a couple of big things that I'm seeing, especially in counseling. Hypersexuality is common and it's discussed openly and freely.
Janet: Tell me what you mean by that word.
Jocelyn: Hypersexuality just means you talk about sex all the time as if it is as common as going grocery shopping.
Janet: And that important.
Jocelyn: And that important. And you openly discuss your sexual orientation. Like my daughter works in a, just a normal company, and sexual orientation is a topic of daily conversation with every other one of her coworkers. And they ask her about it all the time. And so Sexuality is just
Janet: It's important
Jocelyn: on the tip of everyone's tongue. It's being talked about frequently. And so it's really one thing that you have to know about that is it's almost always coming from an evolutionary theory education mindset. Which says humans are evolving into a better and better version of themselves. And we're reaching the pinnacle of perfection. Creation viewpoint would say humans were at their pinnacle shortly after creation.
Janet: As they walked with God.
Jocelyn: As they walked with God before the curse of sin. And so humans were at their best closest to creation and they were unflawed in their relationship with the creator and they didn't doubt his edicts and his mandates. And so we see that generationally, we're getting weaker and weaker and weaker. It's a very different mindset. I also see that children and transgender is an enormous topic right now. And the questions that are being asked are should kids who are very young, be allowed to ask for gender suppression medication and gender reassignment surgery, which will both result in permanent sterilization. And so there is this whole massive group of the LGBT community that says it is child abuse for us to limit a child's expression of their sexuality, even if it's opposed to what the scripture would say is right and good. And along with that is a lot of gender assignment conversation. So is gender assigned at birth or is it assigned later in life? Do you choose your gender or was it assigned to you? That's a huge question.
Janet: Yep. Big question.
Jocelyn: Like I mentioned earlier, bisexuality is just in one in six millennials identify as bisexual and it is becoming, I think, one of the most common understandings of who you are. I am.
Janet: Whoever.
Jocelyn: Yeah. I love whoever. Love is love. There is no limits.I might like girl, I might like a boy. It's really not that big of a deal, like chill out already. And then along with that is this whole crop of specialized sexualities, which is interesting because this group of people that doesn't want to be defined by norms. Now has to create a bunch of norms to let you know who they are.
Janet: They can't just say it's whatever.
Jocelyn: Yeah. It's whatever. So it's really, really invoked to create yourself in your own image. And that means, I want to tell you upfront who I am, so you know how to relate to me. So there's non-binary which means I'm not a girl. I'm not a boy. I could be a combination of both. I choose my own pronouns, which gets super complicated because now people are just making up words that aren't even actual words. There's a group that says that they're aromantic or asexual. Like they just have no sexual attraction. They don't want to be known by anything sexual. There's demisexual, which means I'm only attracted to people when there's an emotional connection. Which is kind of how the scriptures say it goes.
Janet: I didn't know that's what you call that. Okay.
Jocelyn: There's those who think that they're gender fluid. So it really depends on the day what they're feeling and how their interactions and who they're hanging out with. There's pan sexuals, which are people who are attracted to anyone regardless of their sexual identity. And then there's transgender, which means you choose a gender identity that's opposite of your sexual identity. And that includes a lot of things. It could include permanent solutions to that, like hormone therapy and sometimes surgical alteration. And here's the summary. The people who believe in two genders are becoming more and more rare and are seen as oppressive and even discriminatory. Businesses that do not only legitimize LGBTQ lifestyle, but also celebrate and advocate it, they're in danger of being accused of discrimination.
Janet: For not for not celebrating.
Jocelyn: For not celebrating it and not advocating it and not promoting it. So when I wrote this, I wrote this script probably 10 years ago originally, I was warning the people that listened to me like lawsuits boycotts, and getting canceled, there on the horizon. If you do not espouse the LGBT community and them espousing anyone to choose their sexuality, you are in danger of being accused of discrimination. And we are seeing it. We are seeing that so vividly in our community and all over the place.
Janet: Yeah. And we'll talk more about that part specifically at the end, because we are seeing it in our community with a specific action step that they can take.
Jocelyn: Yep.
Janet: So that's where our culture is on the topic of sexuality. And I want to stop first and just say, and we can still image God, we are not hopeless. We are not despairing and we're not mad.
Jocelyn: Nope.
Janet: What I see is a lot of confused people who once you give up a source of truth, how do you determine a lot of these things? And so that's where our heart is on this. But it's confusing. It's chaotic. It's pretty scary to think about little kids trying to navigate all of that.
Jocelyn: Absolutely. I think that human sexuality is really confusing. And it's absolutely chaotic if you're trying to understand it from the perspective of human thought.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: But thankfully God loves us so much that when he created us, he told us what he created us for and how he wanted us to function so that we could be confident and capable in doing our jobs as humans. So like we mentioned earlier, I'm completely comfortable talking about this. I actually find a lot of hope in talking about this topic. And I do talk about it a lot because the world talks about it a lot. And so our biblical perspective needs to be loud and clear and kind and loving.
Janet: So, what is that? It was good for us to at least acknowledge where we are, but that's not really the point of the podcast. It's to say, now let's talk about what are God's standards and why are they better?
Jocelyn: Absolutely. This is my favorite part to talk about. The scripture is sufficient to give us a really good understanding of what it means to be a human. And I find that so reassuring, it's important to note that at no time in the creation story or the giving of the mandate by the creator to the humans, were they ever referred to as genderless or asexual beings? That's really important to understand. From the very beginning, every human was created as either a man human or a woman human and those roles had distinct meaning and purpose.
Janet: And we've talked about that in some previous episodes. So people could go back to the creation mandate episode, and thinking about understanding our purpose, but let me just ask you quickly, why were we created? And before sin entered the picture, what were we supposed to be like?
Jocelyn: So at creation, men and women were created in the image of God to accurately tell the story of God.
Janet: So not really about themselves. It was all about God.
Jocelyn: No. It was all about God. In our maleness and our femaleness, we are able to glorify God by upholding the story of the gospel, which is so cool. The world is supposed to be able to see and understand things about God's hidden nature and his character by observing us, us created humans. God created humans as the very epitome, the pinnacle of his creation. And because those truths about God are evident in what's being created. We are without excuse, collectively we are without excuse to know the God, the creator. Human beings are supposed to uniquely reflect God, the creator in a way that nothing else can
Janet: What a privilege.
Jocelyn: Or nothing else does. So here's a really important little word that we're going to talk about. In Genesis 1:1, the scripture says in the beginning, Elohim created the heavens.
Janet: Elohim, meaning God, or a word for God.
Jocelyn: Yes. Elohim created the heavens and the earth. And that word Elohim means the one true God in the persons of father, son, and ,holy spirit who have a full, rich, beautiful relationship within themselves. But they operate with unity in their diversity. So God said, let us, the three of us, create man in our image. It shows that in part humans were designed to point to the fellowship in God. The way that God relates to God. So men humans and women humans functioning properly, they're supposed to reflect the fellowship of God within himself, the father, the son, and the holy spirit.
Janet: That is so beautiful.
Jocelyn: Yeah, it's so cool. So that divine fellowship is supposed to be very clearly seen and understood because of the way that rightly functioning male and female humans come together to compliment and complete each other. So our sexuality. So that part that everyone is trying to say is flexible and can be talked about, and discovered and created,
Janet: changed,
Jocelyn: our sexuality, it is an existential inherent part of who we are as humans. It is literally impossible to understand our humanness apart from understanding our sexuality, according to the design of our creator. And the reason why I'm so passionate about this is because when people are trying to create themselves in their own image, especially sexuality, they are constantly searching for a purpose. They're constantly searching for something to make life worth living. And I just, I want them to be free from that burden. I want them to know that there is a solution already created for this problem that they're finding themself in. So let's just first think about the fact that God created male and female humans differently, to reflect him in a distinct way. So the man was created first, and he really carries the weight of responsibility for the oversight of the family. Even though Eve sinned. First, Adam was the one that was responsible for having brought sin into the world. And he's the one who bore the weight of that responsibility for the entire family. Man was given authority. He was asked to name the creatures and he was given authority under which the family was supposed to be processing and living and doing their work. So he was biblically qualified to take the vision that God had given him and say, Hey, family,
Janet: and lead
Jocelyn: let's fall under this vision. Let's do this thing that God has called us to. He was also given a job. He was given the job to work the garden and to keep it. And ultimately that means he has a responsibility to provide and protect. And it's central to what it means to be a man. To be a man means you have a sense of responsibility that you are working and keeping for your family and doing God's work in doing that. God really wants men to take the initiative. And the command for men in scripture is that they're supposed to stand up and act like those men that God created them to be. They're drawn to work. They're drawn to provide and protect in a way that women are not. Not that women can't do that.
Janet: And we do that.
Jocelyn: But they bear the image of God in that aspect in a unique way. They're also given an expectation. Instruct the family spiritually. So God gave Adam the rules of the garden. And the expectation was that he was going to go on and share that with his family on behalf of God. So there is a really big spiritual component of what the command was supposed to do. He was supposed to be spiritually cultivating his wife. And you can see that later in the New Testament, God commands the husband to love his wife like Christ did, but also to cleanse her through the washing of the word, by studying the scriptures together and praying, setting the tone spiritually for sanctification. And then, as a result of that marriage, as fathers, they were instructed to generationally replicate that truth, that God calls us to live out his image accurately. Either as a man or as a woman doing that. So that truth about God and the gospel would be known. So that's men. God created women from the man. And one of the reasons that women are supposed to respect their husband is because she was made from the man, and that she was crafted out of him. And she was crafted for him. She was a helper that was made just for him. So because of that, we can understand that women are highly relational. Women were made to relate to men. And they were drawn to relationship drawn to connection, drawn to intimacy in a way that men are not, men are relational, but they're not the same kind of relational as women. Obviously that does not mean that women are supposed to be used and abused by men. It just means that as women bear the image of God uniquely, they're really bearing the helper quality of God. They're showing what it means to bring glory to God by helping somebody else complete the mission that they've been given. And it's not a demeaning position at all because the Holy Spirit himself is called the helper. So we're, bearing some of that image.
Janet: And to think the word in the Old Testament, ezer, almost always refers to God as the helper.
Jocelyn: Yes. Absolutely.
Janet: It's again, that aspect of God's character that women get to display.
Jocelyn: Absolutely. And women were also given a mission. They were given the mission of fittedness. Like no animal fit Adam's need, but Eve did fit his need. So the helper is fitted to the situation. She is fitted, she makes the union whole. And so it's really interesting when you look at the theology of the fact that Eve was taken out of Adam and when they were united, it was like the two pieces were brought back together.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: So fittedness is a really important thing to understand when you're thinking about human sexuality. And when we look at some of the ways that we can err from this standard, that's one of the biggest problems, is that alternate sexuality outside of God's standards is not fitted. It doesn't fit together the way that God designed for it to work. So to be a woman means that we have a softness and an amenability and a responsiveness to our husband that helps him to complete his mission in a way that reflects the truth about God in a way that men don't necessarily do. And men bear the image of God in certain ways that women don't necessarily.
Janet: Because God is so complex.
Jocelyn: He is.
Janet: And I think it's important to stop here for a minute and think, wow, if I am someone who is not a follower of Jesus, and I hear all of this, this is foreign. But then to understand that is how we're different. We serve a different master. So I'm not to look at maleness and femaleness and say, here's how I think it ought to be. Here's what I want. Here's what makes me look better. How come he gets to do that? And I do this? And how come, well, how come I think we should both be able, I think, I think. And to realize okay, when it's about the glory of God, now it's just, what is my role. Not to make man look amazing or woman look amazing, but to make God look amazing.
Jocelyn: And it's so important that we are understanding that our sexuality is a product of theology. This is not just some random thing that one day one of us dreamed up. Sexuality was spoken out of the mouth of God. He said, this is how I'm organizing humans to be, because this is what will work best to tell the story of me.
Janet: Which then helps us understand in a society that doesn't know God, shouldn't we expect them to be confused? We should expect that instead of being shocked by it.
Jocelyn: And I think we shouldn't be surprised that Satan attacks sexuality. If it is so closely tied to the story of the gospel and sharing the story of who truly God is we absolutely should not be surprised that Satan really attacks sexuality.
Janet: That's right. So, it's helpful to see in here with the creator, told us in the Bible about why he did create us, and to understand why that really matters because it does,
Jocelyn: It does.
Janet: It is, it is how we are to reflect God. He didn't have to make two genders.
Jocelyn: No angels were not created with genders.
Janet: Right. And I think sometimes we forget that. It's like, well, he just happened to do it that way. He chose to do it that way, because somehow that displays his character, and a taste of the Godhead more than another plan.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: So let's just take a minute and let's also look at what do scientific studies show us about sexuality.
Jocelyn: I think this area is so important to understand because the liberal world throws around the term science as if it supports their lifestyle and choices, but here's, what real true science says about sexuality. Science shows us that sex is determined, not assigned sex. Sex is determined by whether there is a Y chromosome present at conception. So there's only two sexes from a scientific point of view, there is an XX or an XY if you're conceived with a Y chromosome, you will develop into a male. Every single cell of your body that has that Y chromosome, your brain, your skin, your muscles, your heart muscle, the immune cell, every single cell of your body will have present in its DNA an X and a Y and it tells those cells what to do.
Janet: And it will impact different than an XX cell.
Jocelyn: Absolutely. We know right now with the scientific knowledge that we have at least 6,500 genetic differences between males and females. That's not tiny, that's enormous.
Janet: Right. And that's not just certain men and certain women.
Jocelyn: No. Every man, every woman, every cell of the body, every organ system, how you visually perceive things, how well you can hear, how you process emotions, the biochemical differences at the cellular level matter. And they can't be erased. They can't be changed. They can't be genetically changed out of being what they are. So let's just look at a man. They have a 35% larger heart size. They have a 15 to 25% larger aerobic capacity. They have 40% greater upper body strength. They have 13% greater bone density. Their muscle fibers are longer and stronger at the cellular level. And women have the genetic and biological composition that makes them more flexible and they have better fine motor skills. They have greater endurance. So no one is making this up. If a scientist sits down in a lab, they can show you these differences based on whether an XY is present in your DNA or an XX. Sex declares itself in the womb. An ultrasound tech can use the little wand and look at someone who's pregnant. They can recognize something that's true about a person. If there's a Y present at eight weeks in utero, there are testicles present and they are pumping out testosterone at eight weeks. And by 12 weeks you can tell what the gender of the baby is by an ultrasound. You can tell even earlier with a blood test these days. We do know, I just want to make sure this is clear, we know that there are genetic anomalies of intersex human beings from birth defects or mutations. And we know from other episodes that we've talked about that any mutation that happens is always a negative thing. It means that things are not working the right way. So it is true that a very, very tiny percentage of births would be a baby that is truly intersex. So that means they have a birth defect where something went wrong with the development of their sex organs, and there is going to be some massive implications in their development as a human being. There is going to be some really big congenital disorders that they have to talk about. All of them have reduced fertility. their genitalia is going to be different than it should look. And the estimated incidents of this is like 0.02 to 1.7%. It is an incredibly small amount. And a birth defect does not create a different class of human beings. It's just a deviation of the norm. And so it's not creating some new, better thing. It's creating a kind of, not properly functioned version of the norm. So it's not creating a new better, it's creating a mutation. It doesn't change God's norm for the human design and it doesn't take anything away from the human dignity of that specific child, and those parents, and that child are going to have a mountain of possibly suffering and difficult things that they're going to have to work through and talk through, all of which God will have answers for, but it's going to be a difficult the situation.
Janet: And that will be just like our episode on unjust suffering. There will be things that they're going to have to work through. And when you're in a sin cursed world, we should expect things like that and we should have great compassion for them.
Jocelyn: Yes, absolutely. Here's the final thing from a science point of view, the entire human genome has been mapped at this point. And scientists have proven through that research. There is no genetic predisposition toward homosexuality. Activists are theorizing that sex is assigned to us at birth, and so it can be reassigned later in life. And activist medical professionals are dressing up ideological statements as scientific fact, when really they're just value judgements. So medical professionals are willing to say things that aren't scientific and they're willing to make medical claims because they're pushing an agenda that they want people to agree with. But when you look at actual science, there is no science that supports genetic predisposition toward homosexuality or bisexuality, or the fact that your DNA at a cellular level, it could be changed to reflect what gender you wish you were.
Janet: And it just, you know, when we look back 15 years ago or so I think the real push was, it is genetic. And now, even today, I don't even think that the LGBT community would say that it is because they can change it. And you can't change it if it was genetic. So to just recognize again, when your source of truth is not stable,
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: Even your conclusions are not stable, and they may even contradict themselves. And we're not even always able to see it.
Jocelyn: As an interest side note. When my daughter was thinking that she might want to go into forensic science, we went down to the Indiana state police crime lab. And one of the people in our tour asked a question about this and said, what if someone is living a transgender life and they're involved in a crime and there's blood splatter left at the scene, when you take a sample, will you be able to tell if that person is transgender? And it was a very interesting question. And the scientists said, there is no possible way for us to tell you from a cellular level, anything other than whether that person was born as a woman or as a man. Because if they're a woman, they will have XX in the chromosomes of their blood, and if they're a man, they will have XY in the chromosomes of their blood. So there is no other genetic possibility for a human being. Whether you portray yourself differently is something that we would have to have other evidence to understand.
Janet: Right. So what do you think, has happened? How do you think we got so far from God's standards, so quickly?
Jocelyn: Yeah. We understand that sin is simply missing the mark of the creator's intent.
Janet: And don't, we all do that.
Jocelyn: Any sin. Yeah. Any sin is saying, I look at God's standards of righteousness and say, I don't want that.
Janet: I know better.
Jocelyn: Yeah, I know what's going to make me happy. So the creator's intent was that all of creation would magnify his glory. It's amazing. And he said that human beings would be the pinnacle of his creative glory that told his story accurately. But creation was influenced by Satan to doubt the authority and the truth and the trustworthiness of God's word. And Satan said, you're not going to die, even though the creator said you would die if you disobey him. What's going to happen when you eat that fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, your eyes are going to be open. You're going to become like God. You're going to know good and evil. And that means experientially knowing it. That word in the, Hebrew is yadda. That word yadda means to know something through experience. So what Satan was saying is that you will have the opportunity to experience things that are evil, and God said, and that will kill you.
Janet: So that you don't have to live by faith anymore. You'll get to live by your sight and your experience.
Jocelyn: Exactly. The creation made the decision in the garden to know and define life experientially while factoring the creator's definitions of right and wrong out of their creation. And they decided the tree was good for food, a delight to the eyes and desirable to make one wise. So that sin, missing the mark of what the creator had intended, had a unique experience for both genders. It's interesting to note that the woman received the consequences of sin one way, and the man received consequences of sin a different way. And it depended on their gender. Women sinned first. This beautiful, intimate relationship that functioned so well was immediately destroyed and immediately men and women turned in on each other. So that was the start of the breaking, the tearing, the differences between men and women that became destructive instead of helpful and useful. So that was what they were created for it to be useful and helpful, and to be fruitful and to bear dominion for the Lord. Man was held accountable for the wife's sin because he had been given oversight and authority over his family. But the judgment for sin was sex specific. The men, who had been given the job of tending the garden, now would have trouble working the ground and the ground was going to rebel against them, and they were going to be frustrated. Women, who were given the part of the job of being fruitful, they're now going to have pain in that job. And they would have some sort of a negative type of desire for their husbands. And this promise that he was going to be harsh and rule over them in a way that was not loving. And so there's this big battle of genders, difficulty in making relationships work, and knowing who we are as a result of the fall. And now we all live in a world that's tainted by sin.
Janet: So how do you think that that sin tainting has experienced the way we've used sexuality.
Jocelyn: Well, to answer this, I want to read a passage from Romans one and it's a little bit lengthy, but you'll see why it's important here in just a second. So this is Romans one, starting verse 22, claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images, resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions, for their women exchanged natural relations for those who are contrary to nature. And men, likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. So you can see, that passage, which is so tightly tied to the creation passages, it shows in Romans one 18 through 32, shows that sinning against our creator resulted in flawed experiences of sex.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: Isn't that mind boggling? So when we sinned against our creator, God himself in the scriptures connected to that, that we will have flawed experiences of sex. We'll exchange our natural relations for unnatural relationships. Romans 1:18 through 32 tells us that humans living in rebellion against their creator will certainly experience flawed views and applications of their sexuality. So those who are living in rebellion against their creator will find that their experience of human sexuality is negatively affected. Homosexual relationships are not fitted. Malachi 2:15 says that for godly offspring, one purpose in marriage is reproduction. Woman is fit for the man because that helps him. And so one of the flawed experiences of sexuality that's a result of sin is now we pursue sexual relationships that are not fitted to each other.
Janet: Because our goal is no longer the glory of God. It's the glory of self.
Jocelyn: Exactly. Romans 1:18 through 32 shows us that we rebel against our creator by demanding to know why he decided to make us the way that he did.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: So we shake our fist and say, why did you make me this way? I wanted to find for myself who I am. Isaiah 29:16 says you have turned things around as if the Potter were the same as the clay. How can, what is made say about its maker? He didn't make me. How can what is formed to say about the one who formed it, he doesn't understand what he's doing? We have to remember that God is the Potter. We are the clay. He can make us whoever he wants us to be. And one of the things that we have to come to the conclusion of is that as the creator, he has the right to create us for the accomplishment of his will. And if I am a woman human, I have an already predetermined set of standards by which I am supposed to be functioning. If I'm a created male human, that means something very specific. It's not up to me to decide.
Janet: Yeah. When I talk about, you know, being under God's rule, I'd sometimes just say it this way, and I don't get to tell God how to be.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: Like, I don't get to tell him this is how I think. But even if he was cruel and capricious, he'd be God. And I wouldn't get to say no, thank you. I don't think you're God. But then when I find out what he's really like, the way he did design us, because he designed us for this, actually brings us far more joy and satisfaction than any of the things we try. Which is amazing.
Jocelyn: And one of the things that we just don't have time to talk about today is for those who struggle with sexual confusion or sexual lust of any sort,
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: outside of God's prescription in the scriptures, we understand that that is difficult. You might need help walking through that and we encourage you to seek counseling. That's not necessarily the point that we're trying to talk about today, but we do want to acknowledge that it's hard, and we want to support you getting answers because they're out there. The final thing that we need to think about is that humanistic thinking has developed through history to continuously exclude the creator from thought and logic. This is not a new thing.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: So since the fall after creation, All of human history has just included various different ways of looking at the creator and saying, how dare you tell us what you made us for.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: We are going to factor our knowledge outside of what you have told us is the truth. So this is not a new thing. I don't want anyone to be like thrown off, like, oh, there's this new crazy thing that we're dealing with?
Janet: What are some of the then faulty definitions that you think are going on now that might need to be addressed in thinking through sexuality?
Jocelyn: That's a good question. And I'm going to talk about it in a series of questions. There's going to be a lot of different things to think about, if this is an area that you are pondering or you've loved someone who is thinking about this, you have to understand that our life is built on definitions of truth, whether we realize it or not. And what we think is true is what guides our responses. So I'm going to share a list of 13 questions that are areas of truth that the Bible specifically speaks to. What I found in counseling that is anyone struggling with understanding sexuality from God's point of view is probably going to have questions about one or more of these areas. I'm going to list the questions here and maybe just comment about one or two of them, but I'm including this big list in the show notes as the study sheet that you can work through to come to a really biblical understanding of each, especially as they relate to sexuality.
Janet: So listener don't think you have to write everything down as quickly as she's saying it.
Jocelyn: No. Just listen. Just listen this time. And if you want to have more info, look at the show notes because there will be a study sheet on this. So the first question I find asked a lot is, what is truth? John 17:17 says sanctify them by the truth. Your word is truth. So some of the questions that are going to be asked about this topic are things like what is true and what is flexible? What is changeable. Can you change something that's true or is there something that's true that can't be changed? It's absolute.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: And with that cultural breakdown of the notion that there is truth available, certain previously unquestionable things like if I'm born a woman, but feel like a man, they start to be questioned. So the concept of truth is going to be
Janet: paramount.
Jocelyn: Paramount. The second question is what is life and what is the purpose of life? There is a whole theology behind that question that you could explore and study. The third question is how do I know my identity? And do I create it? Do I make it up? Do I figure it out as I go? Or has someone already told me what my identity is? Fourth? What is my physical body for? And closely tied to that is five, am I supposed to use my body to get attention or give attention? It's a tricky, tricky difference. Number six, what is sexuality? Number seven, what does it mean to be a man? Eight. What does it mean to be a woman? Those are not non-understandable things.
Janet: No, but I think even as believers, we tended to have shallow un-biblical roles for those that are rightly being questioned. But if we don't have better answers, it leads to a lot of chaos.
Jocelyn: Absolutely. And you know what, you know who's asking those questions? Two year olds. They want to know what does it mean to be a girl? And what does it mean to a boy? And it
Janet: Does it mean I take out the trash and she does the dishes? What does that mean?
Jocelyn: Little kids are asking good questions about that. And there are solid answers. And there are good ways to approach those topics. Number nine is, what is sexually biblical? And then what is sexually deviant? 10. What's the definition and purpose of love? 11. What's the definition and purpose of marriage? 12. What's the definition and purpose of family?. Those feel like things that possibly might be flexible, and they are absolutely black and white, according to scripture. There are solid answers for all of them. And then 13. Where do I find a community to fit into and be accepted? Because you know what, friendships and eventually intimate relationships, they naturally unfold out of that community. And so these questions are critical. They're critical in your understanding of what it means to be a human, and then how you live out your humanity.
Janet: And because we are biblical counselors, we would also then start working through what are the heart issues that might be behind somebody's willingness to live in a way that they know is not consistent with the Word of God. We all do it in different areas, but if we can understand our heart behind it, there is great hope there.
Jocelyn: Exactly. And in that list on the show notes, we're going to list out some potential idolatry issues that you might find that you have to work through in this area of sexuality.
Janet: So, how can we then as families, as individuals, as a church, how do we help our kids? How do we help those in our churches and our communities understand sexuality better?
Jocelyn: So I think let's start by recommending to be a family or a church that offers your kids a safe place to learn about sexuality, especially in a world that talks about sexuality all the time, especially deviant sexuality, they just talk about it so openly.
Janet: I think that's huge because many people that I talked to-- my husband and I were over the college ministry for years. We did a lot of premarital counseling. I want to say, I'm guessing now, 90 to 95% of the women I talked to were not talked about the area of intimacy until they talked to me.
Jocelyn: Oh, my word. That's scary.
Janet: So as Christian parents, we don't know how to talk about it. So we just don't. And we can't do that. We never should have. Now we can't.
Jocelyn: No. I really recommend to think about offering community with Christ-like love, acceptance, and encouragement, especially in children's ministry and youth group. And this is why so many times the homosexual lifestyle and culture are wonderful to someone who is struggling with their sexual identity, because they so desire the unconditional acceptance that's being offered by that community. And you just need to know about that. One of their mantras is we have open arms for everyone.
Janet: And shouldn't we?
Jocelyn: That's our job as the church.
Janet: I know. I know.
Jocelyn: So, also, I want to just bring to your attention that bullying about under-development as a male, or a strength as a female can sometimes lead to some internal questions that your kids are afraid to ask. And be that safe place for them to ask about it. But also at the same time, teach your kids that it's okay to not be cool, to not be invited, to not be included or not be considered because they have a safe place where they will always be invited. They will always be safe there. They can always come there, but that is okay if it's not true in other places.
Janet: Parents don't need to freak out if your child is saying, it makes me wonder, am I more feminine as a man? Am I more? Those are okay questions and God has answers. And we don't need to be afraid of that.
Jocelyn: Which brings up my second point. Start talking about sexuality beginning at birth, continuing on through adulthood. Obviously keep the content age appropriate, and follow where the questions lead. The question isn't if we're going to address this with young kids, but it's when and how and who, and I want it to be me talking about it with my kids, because I love Jesus and I love his word, and I want them to hear what's true from me. So define sex and gender and sexuality, according to God's word in an unapologetic way, but really kind and compassionate. And it's really important for them to understand that differentiated gender roles are not a product of the fall. That's the created order that God established.
Janet: I think, in talking about intimacy, which we have my husband and I talk about that at our marriage conference, the reason, one of them, that I believe we don't talk about things of sexuality and intimacy and manhood and womanhood. We don't know it ourselves. So if you're listening to this and you're thinking, that's great that Jocelyn and Janet talked to their families about it, but I have no idea. We will give you some resources. You can learn so that you can be-- learn with your kids. Read it together. Talk about it. I think it's really, you are right, so important for them to see that it's a good design, and that their sexuality is designed by God for a good and important purpose. And if you don't know what that is, there's no way you're going to be able to help your child know that.
Jocelyn: It's also really important to understand that normal child development includes a time that boys pair off with boys and girls pair off with girls, and they're learning normal behaviors of that gender. Those are normal, healthy same-sex friendships, but they, especially in this culture can be misunderstood and misconstrued. And given our current landscape and the constant homonormative push of our culture, often at that age, which is probably in the tween age or the early pre-teens, you're going to get girls thinking that they are homosexual simply because they prefer a friendship with a girl, when that is a normal part of child development.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: Also, it's really important to teach your kids about safe touch and how to keep themselves safe from sexual predators, even in the church. It's just important to be aware that your kids shouldn't be taught to obey all adults, especially if an adult is telling them to do something sinful. So don't be at the same time, don't be so obsessed with keeping your kids safe, that you pull them out of the world. That would make them an easy target for a predator or also ineffective at loving their community.
Janet: Yeah. Because they don't know how to respond. You know, we used to role-play.
Jocelyn: Yeah. Over lunch.
Janet: And just say, what would you do if, what if, they said this? What if they said this? What if they said this? So just so they get more confident that they could say no.
Jocelyn: We also told our kids from the time they were little, if anybody ever tries to look at your private area, touch your private area, take pictures of your private area, or have you do any of those things to them, you have a job. Scream, "No," run away, and go tell a grownup. So we taught that to our kids when they were very little, because we wanted them to know that sexuality is important. It's a special thing that people shouldn't be touching. I also want to encourage you to not be manipulated into believing experts that say it's either embrace gender transition or suicide. That is the activist psychologist kind of view in some medical fields.
Janet: Yeah. But it's not true.
Jocelyn: It's not true. That's not the only option. If your child is struggling with their sexuality, it's not either embrace it and let them do what they think they want, or they're going to kill themselves. That is not accurate. There is really good help available for those that are thinking through that difficult topic. And this is just something to be aware of. It's not necessarily always true, but there are statistics that hypothesize that a growing number of those struggling with sexual identity questions may have been sexually abused in the past. So be gentle and sensitive as you talk about this. People don't just create sexuality issues because they have nothing better to do. They're thinking through very difficult things. And we want to encourage you that if you've had a trauma in your past that you get help for it, and we're gonna link the Association of Biblical Counselors website in our show notes so that if you would like to talk to a counselor about this, you could find a good biblical counselor in your area.
Janet: Yeah. Now we're approaching the end. Hopefully this has been encouraging to you, but we mentioned earlier that we were going to have a specific action step we'd like you to take. Actually in West Lafayette, Indiana, our church is actually in the middle of a very interesting struggle on the topic of sexuality and how we relate to it. Our church operates over two cities in Indiana, Lafayette and West Lafayette. In West Lafayette the city council has just introduced some legislation designed to restrict parents, churches, and unlicensed counselors. That would be us. That would be any pastor giving advice or counsel to a congregant, any biblical counselor, from using the Bible when we counsel minors about their sexuality.
Jocelyn: And we believe this is an important topic to talk about because we really think this is a sort of legislation that will be introduced across the entire country eventually.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: In an effort to criminalize Christians from using the Bible to make statements of fact about sexuality that differ from what the culture on the left would prefer. Yeah. So our church is involved in a fight against that ordinance. And we'd like to ask you to join in our fight by signing a petition saying that you support personal freedom, parental rights, and religious Liberty. And we're going to link that, website in our show notes so that you can join us in that fight.
Janet: And I want to say more importantly, we want to invite you to do a couple of other things and the most important one is pray. And pray for a couple of things. Here are the things I'm praying for. Sure that we would be allowed to continue to use God's word to counsel minors who want to know how to live the way God intended, because we strongly believe that is the most hopeful and loving thing we can give to anyone. But I would also say, please pray for us that we would remember we wrestle not against flesh and blood. Those with whom we disagree are also souls. And we want to stand with humble confidence in God's word, and do that in a way that's respectful and loving to those with whom we disagree.
Jocelyn: Very well said.
Janet: And second, we would encourage you just be vigilant and your communities, there may be similar legislation that's going to come, restrict your religious liberties. We understand we are not guaranteed by God that we will always have these liberties. And so we will love God, regardless. We will know that the light shines brightest in darkness, and we're not going to walk around angry. We're going to be with Jesus. This is not our home. But in the meantime, we can certainly fight for the right to be able to share hope and love with people. We're already seeing these kinds of laws in Canada, the United Kingdom, other places. We're going to have links to a website that was recently created in our area, Lafayette citizens for freedom website, where you can learn more about that. We'll link some national articles, podcasts that have been published recently on the subject, a variety of things that will just help you get up to date. But again, not because we have a right that it would be different, but because we want to do what is right, we will stand up for that to give that hope. And then we'll trust God with whatever he allows.
Jocelyn: Absolutely. We also have some resources we'd like to recommend, and we have a lot of resources today.
Janet: Many, many, many.
Jocelyn: There's going to be a lot of resources in the show notes. Let me just highlight my top three favorites. Number one is an Adventures in Odyssey series called the Ties That Bind. And that series from adventures in Odyssey was designed to ask questions. What is family?
Janet: Love it.
Jocelyn: And they address some of the topics of sexuality that we've been talking about in a very winsome and appropriate way, that would be helpful for that topic to be brought up with you and your family as you talk about gender and sexuality. We've really appreciated that Adventures in Odyssey series. And then two books by John Piper are very helpful in thinking about this. The first one is What's the Difference, and that's actually available free online as a download on the Desiring God website. But that book, which is a small book, looks at just what does it mean to be a man? And what does it mean to be a woman? And why does it matter and what is so special about things being different?
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: And that's followed up with another short book called This Momentary Marriage by John Piper,
Janet: Which is also free online.
Jocelyn: Oh, is it? Which talks about how a, man human and a woman human doing their respective jobs coming together in a complimentary fashion. It tells the story of God in a beautiful way through marriage. So I recommend those resources for sure.
Janet: What's funny is This Momentary Marriage also has a chapter that I think is one of the best chapters on singleness as well.
Jocelyn: Oh, that's so cool.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: How helpful.
Janet: Because he understands it's momentary marriage. The goal of life is not marriage. The goal of life is the glory of God. How does he use singleness or marriage? So it's actually, I love that book.
Jocelyn: And there's going to be a bunch of other resources. Like if you're struggling with homosexuality or desires for homosexual relationships, there's going to be some resources on there. There's going to be some resources about if you are, trying to navigate this with a loved one in your family to think through. And then just in general, like how to raise sexually healthy kids, how to talk about your kids and how to deal with sexual sin in general, because we're not just saying that homosexual sin is sin. Any sex outside of God's standards is sin. And so we want to hold up the standard, the beautiful, healthy whole standard from God's word as what were espousing is best for humans.
Janet: Excellent. All right. Thank you, Jocelyn. This I hope was encouraging. I know it's a heavy topic, but God's way is good. And what I would like to do, as we close, I would just like to pray, certainly for legislation. We can pray for that. But more than that, I want to pray for our listeners. Some who may be struggling. I just, I would like to talk to them. So talk to the Lord on their behalf. Oh father, first of all, thank you. Thank you. That you did not leave us in a way that we didn't know what our purpose is. That you told us clearly. And God, we understand that all the confusion is because we sinned. Now there is confusion in so many areas of our lives. God, I pray for those who are struggling with disordered desires, whether that's not agreeing with heterosexual sex, not agreeing with you as far as, what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, whether that's lust, even within heterosexual sex, we all have disordered desires, God, because our hearts are tainted with sin as a result of the fall. So I pray that as we talk with each other, it would be with incredible compassion, but also with great hope because, God, that's exactly why Jesus came. He came because we are so needy, he came because we needed someone outside of ourselves. So I pray that we would be drawn to you through this. I pray for those who are struggling, that they would know the goal in life is not to be heterosexual. The goal in life is to bring you glory, to trust you, even when our desires are disordered, to trust you with longings that remain unfulfilled for whatever reason, to trust you because you're trustworthy. And, God, I praise you that the day is going to come when those of us who have trusted, you will be with you again, and we won't be confused anymore. There will be no disordered desires. We will be living the way you designed us to live. And in the meantime, I pray for those who are struggling, that you would grant them the humility and the courage to go and seek out help in some of the areas that we will have in the show notes, and that you would grant them growth and hope. All because of Christ, we can pray anything. Amen.
Jocelyn: Amen.
Janet: Thank you. Thank you for joining us and listening. And I pray that you'll be with us for our next episode as we go on this journey together.
To keep from missing any future episodes, please sign up for our newsletter on our webpage joyfuljourneypod.com. From there you can also subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, or Spotify. You can also visit us on our Facebook page or Instagram at Joyful Journey Podcast. If you have questions or comments for us, you can email us at joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their website.
