Humility — with Stuart Scott
Pride can easily take root in the hearts of Christians, often unnoticed. Humility is frequently seen as the remedy for pride, but how can Christians genuinely cultivate this virtue?
This week, Janet and Jocelyn interview Dr. Stuart Scott, a seasoned educator who has taught at Southern Seminary and Masters Seminary, and is now collaborating with Bob Jones University to establish a counseling center. Dr. Scott delves into the distinction between pride and humility, explaining that pride centers on oneself, while humility focuses on others. He emphasizes the subtlety of pride and offers practical advice on how to identify and overcome it, helping Christians to shift their focus towards God and others.
Visit the Joyful Journey website to sign up for our newsletter, view a transcript, and search previous episodes.
Emails us with questions or comments at joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com
Donate to Joyful Journey Podcast
Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Resources
Resources
Books
From Pride to Humility - Stuart Scott
Humility - Andrew Murray (parts are very helpful)
Website
Masters in Biblical Counseling
Handout
Read Through the Scripture Challenge 2024
Transcript
Jocelyn: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Janet: I just want to make it as totally simple as possible for ladies to see that the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy.
Janet: Well, welcome back. This is Janet here with Jocelyn once again.
Jocelyn: Hi friends.
Janet: And I'm going to talk about a topic today that I think I'm going to use a hundred percent word.
Jocelyn: What? Wow.
Janet: I try not to use those, but I think I'm gonna. I'm going to say, I believe everyone experiences loneliness to some degree.
Jocelyn: I agree.
Janet: And that's why we're going to talk about that today. I get a lot of questions about that. And if we're honest, even those of us who think we're doing really well, there is something deep inside that I'm not completely known, or completely loved.
Jocelyn: Yep.
Janet: And I would agree, I, certainly some seasons, some circumstances are definitely lonelier than others. But I really do think it affects all of us.
Jocelyn: I agree. I'm glad we're talking about this because I think sometimes we're shocked when we feel lonely.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: And it's like, Oh, I'm in such a happy marriage. Why do I feel alone? Like, you know, it, all of us have to deal with this. So I'm glad we're talking about it.
Janet: And if we don't -- Cause if we don't understand it, it either seems like what's wrong with you that you're thinking that, or don't you appreciate your spouse if you're thinking that way? And I think we probably all already have our own working definitions of loneliness, but I want to get us all on the same page. Here's one definition. I read several things on this and one was a booklet by Deborah Howard called Help, I'm So Lonely. And here's her definition of loneliness: anything that sets us apart from others, which can cause us to feel disconnected and isolated.
Jocelyn: That's helpful.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: And accurate.
Janet: And I think, I can relate to that. One resource I read, it was interesting, distinguished it from aloneness, which is neutral. Okay. I'm alone at the moment or whatever. Solitude, which is a positive thing. Or loneliness.
Jocelyn: It's interesting because I personally love solitude. I am exhausted when I'm around tons of people. I love being home alone.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: But I don't like feeling lonely
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: in my house.
Janet: So they're not the same.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: It's that aloneness that also feels disconnected and isolated. And that's interesting. Have you ever wondered why that's experienced as a negative?
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Why is that negative?
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: I think it implies we weren't designed for that.
Jocelyn: I agree.
Janet: Something's wrong. And this was helpful to me, a couple of the books that I read, Steve DeWitt wrote a book called Loneliness and then it has a longer subtitle that I don't have memorized,
Jocelyn: Subtitles. They get me all the time.
Janet: But it was long and good. But here's what he says, which I completely agree. We were made in the likeness of a relational, communicating, and triune God. We were designed. for relational fulfillment vertically with God and horizontally with other humans. So that's what we were designed for.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: He goes on to say, God assesses Adam's aloneness when, before Eve, Adam's aloneness as an insufficient divine reflection.
Jocelyn: That's cool.
Janet: His creation of Eve completes the social reflection of God's tri- unity, what we call Trinity. Like God, humanity is now a plurality of equals. Adam is male and Eve is female.
Jocelyn: That's so cool.
Janet: So to think about, I'm not ready to say Adam was lonely,
Jocelyn: but he was alone
Janet: but he was alone. And it wasn't sufficient if he's going to reflect the image of God because God is relational. So our relationships then are just going to be a shadow of that fellowship within the Godhead.
Jocelyn: That's so cool.
Janet: Yeah. And then to think through ideally, we were designed to live, we see in Genesis 2, naked and not ashamed. And certainly they didn't have clothing on, but that's also fully known, fully loved, nothing to hide. We were designed for that. Well, we all know, I believe, we were designed for life and not death. But sin changed all of that.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: So we know now that death is a result of sin and that one day it will be gone. And I think we can say the same thing about loneliness.
Jocelyn: I agree. And especially the way that it was just developed there. God designed us to be relational. He designed us to be known and loved and because of sin that can't be the way it is on earth.
Janet: Right. Right. Dewitt says this, distance from God and awkward nakedness now before others point to a time when we felt neither in the garden of Eden. We long to be in that garden again without hiding or shame. I think that's what loneliness is.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: That desire. So it helps us understand why we feel that loneliness so acutely. And while we're living in the reality now where there is loneliness, we know we have a sure hope that one day death and loneliness are going to be gone. So understanding that has, I think, a variety of implications. And one is that our primary focus should not be to eliminate loneliness. We should just expect it.
Jocelyn: Yeah. It's just going to be part of our experience.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. DeWitt says this, loneliness is what image bearers feel when something or someone we were made to live for is absent.
Jocelyn: That's interesting.
Janet: Yeah. As I was reading a lot of these things, I'm thinking I resonate with that. Yes, that's so true. So yes, we can, and I think we should seek to minimize it and to develop flourishing relationships, but we're not going to be shocked by loneliness. And. I think it means we're going to stop thinking when I'm lonely, they did something wrong or I did something wrong necessarily. Because now we know it's just going to impact all of us.
Jocelyn: It's just a fact.
Janet: Yes. Yes. And we know that it impacts all of us. I think on Practical level. We know no one completely understands you. Quite frankly, if we're honest, we don't understand ourselves.
Jocelyn: I was, yeah, accurate.
Janet: Sometimes your closest friends don't understand or even worse, they don't even notice.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: The most requested session I've ever taught is dealing with unfulfilled longings, and I think it's because we all deal with them. And one of those longings is to belong and not be lonely. Jocelyn, can you think of any seasons of loneliness that surprised you?
Jocelyn: Well, speaking of to belong and not be lonely, like that was the expectation of my early marriage.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Like that's the whole reason I got married. I didn't want to be alone. I wanted someone to know me, to love me, to never disappoint me.
Janet: Yep. Yep.
Jocelyn: Poor Brian set up for success. I think I felt very alone and it surprised me after having my first baby because I was literally never alone. There was a kid always in my arms. I thought like, Oh look, I'm never alone.
Janet: Now I'll feel complete.
Jocelyn: I felt so lonely because I didn't know what I was doing. I think it's weird that I've felt really lonely in my job surrounded by tons of other staff. But like no one understands my unique position or what I'm going through or what I'm thinking or what I'm seeing or like how all these policies are impacting me. At times I felt very alone when I'm different than other people. Like here I am in the middle of all these people and I'm the only one who thinks this way or has this value or cherishes this thing or thinks this is important. It just feels really isolating.
Janet: I can remember going home, my parents are both gone. I loved them. For many years, they were not living as believers. And they were very gracious people. They would have me and the kids fly home to them in Florida. They'd pay for us to do that. And Brent couldn't come. So it'd be us. And I, feeling like I'm the only one who thinks this way. I would just think, Oh my word, I'm so lonely right now. So you're right. When you're the only one there is this loneliness. And I think our experience of loneliness depends at least in part on the expectations we have for that area.
Jocelyn: Totally. Like I was just thinking about that my marriage, about that in the beginning, like I expected to be fully known and understood.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: And like I don't know why I ever expected that Brian was going to be my savior. Like that's so unkind.
Janet: and you probably wouldn't have said those words, but that's what you were doing.
Jocelyn: No. But that's what I was thinking.
Janet: Well, and I was convinced early in our marriage that he would understand me if he's being godly, and that means he would see it the way I do.
Jocelyn: Clearly.
Janet: Because I'm I'm clearly right. So so there's pride there, but there's also just this I don't understand why I'm communicating and you're not seeing what I'm seeing like there's that frustration, which is sinful pride But I think there was also an element of there's a loneliness to not having someone completely understand.
Jocelyn: Yes Yes.
Janet: Because I'm not typically as lonely when I'm standing with a bunch of strangers. So I'm in an elevator and nobody knows each other.
Jocelyn: You expect it.
Janet: I don't usually feel profound loneliness there.
Jocelyn: Because you expect everyone's keeping to themselves.
Janet: Yes. But now my own family or my church family, these are the closest relationships I'm supposed to have and I just think it'll be different and then it isn't and I feel it more profoundly. And it is true that those tastes of, hints, the shadows of fellowship and communion should be most prevalent in our church family and our nuclear family. They aren't always. But even at best, they're just shadows. And Dewitt says it this way about our loneliness, that it can be vertical or horizontal. And I think we focus on the horizontal, but we forget that the root of that can even be vertical. He says the absence of a reconciled relationship with our creator is spiritual pain. And the lack of meaningful relationships with others is a social pain.
Jocelyn: And they're literally painful. Like,
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: It is. Loneliness is painful. I think that's important for us to understand and to acknowledge. Like no one is saying you will feel lonely and it should feel like joy.
Janet: Right. Just don't let it bother you. It bothers us. It hurts.
Jocelyn: And it should bother us.
Janet: Yes. But understanding why we deal with it, knowing that it's part of the fall, what do we do? Well, for some reason, I do think at times we're embarrassed to admit loneliness. It's like it's this character flaw that I'm so lame, I don't even have friends. So I don't want to admit that I'm lonely. So if I equate it to a character flaw, And then I can't admit it to others. Sometimes I can't even admit it to me. I'm just going to medicate it with
Jocelyn: Yes. But understanding why we deal with it, knowing that it's part of the fall, what do we do? Well, for some reason, I do think at times we're embarrassed to admit loneliness. It's like it's this character flaw that I'm so lame, I don't even have friends. So I don't want to admit that I'm lonely. So if I equate it to a character flaw, And then I can't admit it to others. Sometimes I can't even admit it to me. I'm just going to medicate it with
Janet: either ODing on entertainment, social media, whatever. I'm just not going to go there. Well, then that's going to encourage me to respond in a lot of wrong ways.
Jocelyn: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah.
Janet: Can you think of any wrong ways that maybe others have responded, probably not you, Jocelyn, but maybe others you've seen.
Jocelyn: These are probably all me. Well, all me, I could get mad about it and then blame the other people around me for not noticing.
Janet: Absolutely.
Jocelyn: Like, didn't you notice how sad I looked?
Janet: I mean, I, on purpose, exaggerated my sad face. Yes.
Jocelyn: Or like, I felt lonely and I didn't feel included and I'm just, now I'm mad at everyone. I could also feel sorry for myself because that's what I do most naturally. I could be like, peace out, I'm out. If you guys aren't going to pay attention to me and include me, then I'm going to go somewhere where I am appreciated.
Janet: Self protect.
Jocelyn: Yeah. I would also want to make the sad feelings go away. Personally, I do that with chocolate and potato chips. Other people do that with drugs or alcohol or not eating or cutting or fantasizing. Like we all have a thing, but it's like, how can I medicate the sadness? So there's all sorts of ways we could respond wrongly to that.
Janet: Yeah. Well, here's a few of them. And I want to be specific because I think sometimes we don't realize there's a problem until we realize we've been doing some of these things,
Jocelyn: Oh, yeah. That's true.
Janet: You know, so not that it's always the wrong thing. But one wrong response to being lonely at church or in my home, I need a different church, a different spouse, a different friend, this, whoever it is,
Jocelyn: That's the problem. Yeah.
Janet: Is not doing what they should be doing. And the reason I'm lonely is they're a bad friend. They're an unfriendly church. My spouse is insensitive. So my knee jerk is, I need a different one.
Jocelyn: And there may be times where you do need to explore whether you should find a different church but not just as your knee jerk reaction.
Janet: Not for that reason.
Jocelyn: Yeah. Not for loneliness.
Janet: Right. Or, I need to make this go away. Now I am set down a path. It's a painful feeling.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: So now my goal is, how do I eradicate it? And then I'm already on the wrong path. First of all, we've just seen we have to expect it. So if you make it your goal to eliminate it, it's already futile.
Jocelyn: Yeah. Because literally it cannot happen.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: Until we go to heaven.
Janet: That's right. DeWitt says this, a good test about whether I'm justified in my level of concern is whether God values this the same way I do.
Jocelyn: Interesting.
Janet: Because is it wrong to try to assuage loneliness?
Jocelyn: No. Not necessarily.
Janet: Are you valuing it in the same way God does? Is it THE thing? is eliminating it the goal. No. And I love that. Because Jesus chose loneliness. Why? Because he valued me and you. And what I needed from him was that he would pay for my sin and it led to a lot of loneliness. So his values were not "I don't want to be lonely," number one. Though we're going to see that he did some things to try to assuage his loneliness.
Jocelyn: I think it's helpful to know that like loneliness is not a sin.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Jesus chose loneliness because there was a better
Janet: out of love.
Jocelyn: There was a better goal behind it.
Janet: Yep. Yep. But if it stays my goal, eliminating it, I promise you, we will become vulnerable to all kinds of sin
Jocelyn: Absolutely.
Janet: Because now whatever it takes. Whether that's self righteousness and I have to, whatever it takes, I'm going to go there. Dewitt says this, either we will collapse as the longing remains unfulfilled. If I believe I have to get rid of it, or I'm going to be devastated when the longing is fulfilled, but it fails to satisfy.
Jocelyn: Very true.
Janet: Which is sometimes what happens if I just could be married. And then we were, and it didn't do it.
Jocelyn: And then you get the thing that you want and you're still sad.
Janet: And now what? Yeah. Yeah. He says this, which I thought, Oh, there's a challenge. Rather than asking God to remove our loneliness, can we pray that God would cause us to rejoice in how he sustains us in it?
Jocelyn: Wow.
Janet: It's like, can we?
Jocelyn: That's a big prayer.
Janet: Maybe not. But, that was Jesus. That was it. So the goal can't be, it's got to be somebody else I have to change. Everybody around me. It can't be, how do I just make it go away? And it can't be isolation. Ironically, many of us isolate because loneliness is painful. It's almost like,
Jocelyn: that's like a self defeating thing to do.
Janet: Yes. But if I don't want the pain of feeling the rejection of loneliness, I'll isolate,
Jocelyn: Almost prevent the rejection from being able to happen.
Janet: And that just increases my loneliness. And here's what it's surfacing, a self absorption, a selfishness. These wrong responses are already starting to give us a clue to what the right responses are going to be that we'll get there. Elizabeth Elliott says this, even loneliness may be a form of selfishness. Not that it always is. But she says this and I think this is really wise. One can reject friendship when it's not offered on the terms one chooses.
Jocelyn: Which would show you that what you didn't really want was friendship. You wanted adoration.
Janet: I wanted them to take care of all of my loneliness.
Jocelyn: Or being known. Yeah.
Janet: Or being known. Yeah.
Jocelyn: And not demanding something that they cannot give you.
Janet: Yes. Proverbs 18:1 says, whoever isolates himself seeks his own desire.
Jocelyn: That is interesting. I did not know that was in the Bible.
Janet: I think that's funny because I would have thought, seeks his own desire. Basically, it's selfish.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: You're thinking about yourself when you isolate. He breaks out against all sound judgment. It's not wise.
Jocelyn: That's such an interesting verse.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah, so DeWitt says it this way. My loneliness is-- Now he says it this Strong my loneliness is directly proportional to the level of my selfishness. Isn't that interesting?
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: Now, we didn't say all loneliness is sin.
Jocelyn: No.
Janet: But when I'm feeling it so acutely that it's like the most important thing to me, it's because I'm selfish and think I shouldn't have to deal with it.
Jocelyn: It's interesting because I was really expecting to be lonely in the empty nest years. I prepped myself for it. Like I got into good mental space because I was like, you're probably going to struggle. It's going to be really hard. But I was surprised when it wasn't.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Because thanks to God and for his glory, I've built a habit of not living for myself because of selfishness for a lot of decades now. And so I was surprised when I finally was kind of like alone that it wasn't sad to me. And it's so cool. Like it just illustrates the point that you're making.
Janet: Yes. Yes. We think we're lonely
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: because of other people or circumstances or frequently other people's selfishness. They're not including me.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: And I have to at least consider the way I'm feeling that and experiencing that may be a reflection of my selfishness.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: And not to say you wouldn't be lonely at all if you weren't selfish, but how I experience that.
Jocelyn: How it affects me.
Janet: Yeah. Yep. So, isolating won't help. Another one. Is there's nothing wrong with picking up a hobby, joining a group, unless my overarching primary motivation is, I don't want to feel lonely. Now I'm using entertainment as a distraction, which is again a focus on self. Now I'm going into these other groups, not how can I give, but I'm here, make me not lonely. And again, it's going to be opposite of how I was designed. I was designed to grow in my vertical relationship with God, love God and out of that love others. So when I distract with entertainment or social media, what I'm going to find is I may be really doing a lot of things and I've increased my loneliness.
Jocelyn: It's so weird because you're wasting your energy to fill your mental space with entertainment, and the loneliness issue is still going to be there at the end of it. You're just going to be tired and you won't have energy to deal with it.
Janet: It's exactly. It's so funny you say that. Dewitt says this, entertainment's available to fill all the moments that might otherwise provide time for relationship building. But here's the thing, real relationships do involve risk.
Jocelyn: And they involve
Janet: And we're gonna talk about that.
Jocelyn: They involve time. Like, it just takes time to work on relationships.
Janet: Another one. One book I read, this was interesting, talked about how lonely nuclear families are. And then when this pastor talked with some families, what are your friendships like? Well, you know, they're lonely. They want more friends, but schedules are packed with, here's what we got to do. And then there's no reason,
Jocelyn: There's just no time.
Janet: No time to invest in relationships and deepen them. Some of them, more often than not, Now we're going to church, but we have to go online cause we have to get to our next sporting event. The family calendar, incredibly busy with activities then, and it's all things that they wanted to do, but there's not a lot of how do I sacrifice for others? So they're very busy. They're very involved and they're very lonely.
Jocelyn: That's sad.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: It's sad and I'm just thinking so, so true.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: I know so many families that are just like that.
Janet: Yeah. So maybe it's selfishness in the form of this is what I want to do.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: But maybe it's self protection.
Jocelyn: Yeah. If I,
Janet: I'm not going to put myself out there.
Jocelyn: If I'm so busy, then there's not time to be rejected.
Janet: Yes. And I won't get hurt. But either way. it increases my loneliness.
Jocelyn: Definitely.
Janet: So what should we do? Well, first, I think we have to understand, DeWitt says this, we are first and foremost, lonely for God.
Jocelyn: I think that's so profound and also comforting.
Janet: Yeah. And we don't even realize it, but that's what my soul is longing for because he is the one who Adam and Eve walked with.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And God knew everything about them and was 100 percent dedicated to their good. They were a hundred percent known, a hundred percent loved and physically with them. That's what we long for.
Jocelyn: That's completely satisfied.
Janet: Yes, yes. And you know what? Jesus understands that because he left that.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: To be with us. And on the earth, even when he was alone, he said this in John 16, yet I am not alone for the father is with me. DeWitt says this, his vertical relationship with God, the father was sufficient for him. Even when his closest human relationships were shattered, the gospel of Jesus restores us to our creator God and provides a pattern to follow of love, --which will diminish my loneliness-- and community with others, which enhances belonging.
Jocelyn: That's really cool.
Janet: Yeah. So we can diminish our loneliness by learning how to love God and love others. But there is a sense it's still there because I'm not with him yet. He's not there.
Jocelyn: And we can't expect that to be gone until we are with him. So it's futile to push for that.
Janet: Yep. Yep. So now I can fight the right battle.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: I can deepen my walk with my savior. That loneliness is a reminder. I need to deepen my walk with my savior because that's what will help diminish it. And in that, I grow in faith and trust that one day I will fully experience what my heart's longing for.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And in the meantime Now I'm able to change my expectations and see the hints, the shadows, the tastes of it that are all around me.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: DeWitt says this, the key is to apply my firm belief in God's goodness to my circumstances and trust God for the presence or absence of quality relationships in my life.
Jocelyn: That's really cool. And I think that would be really comforting for like someone who longs to be married or someone who longs to have children. Like that longing is a part of life on a fallen earth, but there are ways that we can invest in closeness with the one we were made for.
Janet: Yes. And trust him with what he allows or doesn't.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: Which part of that is going to mean biblically lamenting. You know, we've talked in other episodes about our tendencies to complain sinfully. Well, if I don't biblically lament, I'm provoking myself to bitterness and complaining.
Jocelyn: That's true. Yeah.
Janet: So talking to the Lord about the pain of not being understood, the pain of not being known, the pain of not belonging. I don't need to pretend like it doesn't bother me. I just need to go to the Lord and I don't need to blame other people for why I feel that way.
Jocelyn: And you don't need to pretty it up. Like, it can be
Janet: It hurts.
Jocelyn: As hurtful as it is and as painful as it is. He understands.
Janet: Yes. So slow down. Talk to Jesus about it. He understands. And then out of that, I can then begin to initiate relationships for the good of the other.
Jocelyn: Not self centeredly.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: I need friends. So I don't feel sad.
Janet: Yes, so I'm gonna go join all these clubs so I can feel like I belong How about what can I do now? Because here's what I know. Everybody's feeling a bit of loneliness.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: How can I go for the good of the other? DeWitt says this, loneliness isn't diminished when we relationally take from people, but when we relationally give. That's what I was designed for.
Jocelyn: It's like the upside down kingdom.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: It doesn't make sense, but it works.
Janet: He says this overcoming loneliness has little to do with gaining someone. We must lose someone. Who? Me. How? By giving myself to meet the relational and spiritual needs of others. Very counterintuitive. But it's the way of our savior. he goes on to say, loneliness creates internal energy. So leverage that energy as motivation toward a more profound engagement with God and others. Use the energy. And then in this way, loneliness becomes a catalyst for my growth and it helps me to love God and love others.
Jocelyn: How very like the Lord.
Janet: I know. I know. So I'm going to have to spend time reflecting on Jesus's life and ministry. One of the other booklets I read, Why Do We Feel Lonely at Church? I loved this that he said, Jesus's earthly life demonstrates a deep commitment to relationships and a remarkable sense of initiative. Further, he was never in a hurry. He embraced meals with others for discipleship, and he accepted nearly every invitation that was made to him. Although his primary work was to proclaim the kingdom, call people to repentance and faith and gather disciples to himself, Jesus hardly did anything alone. After all, his time on earth had a singular purpose, to glorify God by returning his lost sheep to him.
Jocelyn: That's interesting.
Janet: Everything he did was relational. And it's true, but it wasn't because they completely understood him.
Jocelyn: No.
Janet: He did not have an equal. He did not have anyone who understood. He would look at them and say, I'm going to die and rise again. They'd walk away going, wonder what he means by that. Like they didn't get it.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: They didn't get it. But that was okay. He wasn't fully known or loved by other people. They deserted him the night before he died, but he still loved and he did that for us. And he understands. So he goes on to say this. If this is how the son of God ordered his life on this earth, what would it look like for us to follow in his ways?
Jocelyn: Radically different than how we live.
Janet: Yes. To not play the host, but join people where they are. To pursue those outside the fold. To attend gatherings and events with intentionality and for the sake of others and our spiritual transformation.
Jocelyn: Imagine if we all did that. Like, we would be a force to be reckoned with. Christians would change the world.
Janet: And that's what we're supposed to do. But it assumes I'm not trying to get my needs met by others. Because it is a risk. When I get involved in a group, I'm risking rejection. But I can do that. Jesus was rejected when he got involved.
Jocelyn: And he still did it.
Janet: Yes. Yes. But when my anchor, and it was Jesus's anchor, was his father. When my anchor. is the one who did that for me. Now I can risk. Now I'm free. And in the middle of that, I can actively trust and wait. Which is what I love about Psalm 37. It was our memory verse. One of our passages last year. Biblical waiting involves all these words from Psalm 37: trusting, doing good, dwelling where God has me, cultivating faithfulness, delighting, committing. All of those things. Elizabeth Elliott says this. Waiting patiently is almost impossible unless we're also learning at the same time, to find joy in the Lord, commit everything to him, trust him, and be quiet.
Jocelyn: That's a great quote.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Wow.
Janet: So that's the key. How do I develop that growing heart for God instead of myself?
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: How do we grow to see loneliness differently? to see it as a painful side effect of living in this broken world, and that it's a catalyst to thank the one who conquered sin and death. What are we going to do? How do I grow in building God honoring relationships? Well, I would say in your own life first, what does loneliness look like for you? Don't just be in a hurry. Define that.
Jocelyn: It's good to define it. Yeah.
Janet: In the little booklet I read, Help I'm So Lonely, I'm not going to read them all. That would be a great booklet to get. It's got a lot of descriptors from people that can help you put words to it.
Jocelyn: That's cool.
Janet: This is what it looks like for And number one, here's what you're gonna learn. You're not alone in your loneliness.
Jocelyn: Yeah, definitely.
Janet: You're really not alone.. But a question for you to consider as you're trying to figure out what loneliness looks like for you. If you weren't lonely, what would be different? Would it be that you belong? Would it be that somebody gets you? Somebody thinks about you? Somebody understands you? What is it? And at the end of that little help book, there's all these personal application questions that will help you understand yourself.
Jocelyn: That's cool. That'd be really helpful.
Janet: Yeah. Then don't just stay looking at you. I understand me. So then I get to compare it. The scriptures. I'm just going to mention these so many biblical characters who face loneliness. I'm just going to mention them. And they would be people that you could study more. The scriptures make it very, very clear. We should not be surprised if we're lonely. Job says, I am allotted months of emptiness. Not only was he in pain and all of the things that he went through, the loneliness of nobody understands.
Jocelyn: He was totally alone. Yeah.
Janet: Ecclesiastes four says, woe to him who's alone when he falls and has not another to lift him up. The loneliness there. Psalm 13 starts with, will you forget me forever? Talk about lonely is when you think you've been forgotten by God.
Jocelyn: By God. Yeah.
Janet: First Kings 19, Elijah wants to die. And he says he's the only one left who's following God. I'm not going to explain the whole passage, but that's how he feels.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And it's not accurate, but imagine how lonely that felt
Jocelyn: and he was being asked to do really difficult things.
Janet: Yes. And to think I am alone. It's a good reminder that sometimes our perspective is skewed. And that will increase my loneliness. He really believed he was the only one left and the loneliness of that. Noah, can you imagine working for years on a boat while nobody believes you?
Jocelyn: I've thought about that a lot. I can't imagine. It was like a hundred years, wasn't it, building the boat?
Janet: Yes. And I'm like, a week would be hard.
Jocelyn: A couple of days does me in.
Janet: And you want them to go in the end. See, I was right.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Hundreds of years. The loneliness of that. David. And I love that David was such a writer. So we got to experience
Jocelyn: We got to hear it. Yeah.
Janet: What it was like David lonely in the wilderness is where he's writing songs. And in that instance, his loneliness was not due to his sin. And it had a purpose. He learned to turn to God. He says in Psalm 63, your chesed is better than life. When I remember you upon my bed and meditate on you in the watches of the night. The help booklet says this about that passage, David lay awake upon his bed, not rehearsing his pain and misery. But meditating upon God, recognizing that he alone had been his help in times of need.
Jocelyn: That's a really great point.
Janet: There's a lot David could have been meditating on in the middle of the night. And he was alone.
Jocelyn: Absolutely. Worrying.
Janet: Yes. And he was meditating. And his loneliness crowded him to God. And I love that. Isaiah 25, for you've been a stronghold to the poor, a stronghold to the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm. That's what our loneliness can do, but those are also people who were all lonely. I cannot imagine how lonely Jeremiah was.
Jocelyn: I can't either. I, I've thought about that often. That would be terrible to live his life. I'm so glad Jesus didn't ask me to be Jeremiah.
Janet: I know. And I think in the middle of that, when we read in Lamentations, what he saw. Imagine his loneliness. We're not alone in feeling lonely, but the most important one, thinking about Jesus, listen to this quote. His was a lonely road of obedience on behalf of helpless sinners. It's Only the person of Jesus Christ who keeps us from experiencing ultimate torment that lasts for eternity. That's from the help book.
Jocelyn: Which is the worst part of hell is eternal separation from God and ultimate loneliness.
Janet: Alone. Yes. So he was alone, so you will truly never be alone.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And he understands our loneliness better than anyone else. Elizabeth Elliot says he was misquoted, misjudged, misrepresented, misunderstood. And I would say that's such a unique loneliness. And he did it for me. Wow. DeWitt says it is a great irony that the cross displays both the greatest love and the greatest loneliness ever.
Jocelyn: That's a very helpful fact.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Very helpful.
Janet: The Night Before at Gethsemane. Jesus asks for support in his loneliness of what's coming,
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: he asked for some support and that wasn't wrong. So you know, he was feeling it.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: Well, he didn't get it. But he still honored God. He asked for community, and he accepted it when he didn't get it. And because of that, I was saved. My loneliness can be used by God to increase my appreciation and love for Jesus. And it allows me, if that's my anchor, I can ask for community and trust the Lord when I don't get it.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And then that will actually diminish my loneliness. So, that means I'm going to be meditating on something better than just my loneliness. Jesus didn't meditate on it.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: He asked for help and meditated on something different. So spend time rehearsing what your actual purpose is. When I see what I just remembered about Jesus and how beautiful and loving he is, I grow more excited about my mission. I get to show that to the people around me. Then I start living that way. And when I live the way I was designed to live, in those moments, Loneliness recedes because it's not my focus. Elizabeth Elliott, Christ calls me out of my natural self centeredness by listening to my cries and then showing me the bigger picture. The better I come to know him, the more I become interested in what he's interested in. My joy becomes less dependent on my own immediate circumstances and more attached to what he's doing. Acceptance brings peace.
Jocelyn: That's really beautiful.
Janet: And that's what my soul is longing for. So then in the middle of all of that, what else can I do? I cling to Christ. Because he understands. When we run to Christ, we find that even our loneliness can be used by God to refine us and grow us. Elizabeth Elliott says that loneliness is one kind of dying most of us learn about sooner or later. Far from being bad for us, or a hindrance to spiritual growth, it may be the means of unfolding spiritual blossoms hitherto enfolded.
Jocelyn: Oh my goodness. Lofty.
Janet: As only she speaks. And she says this, think of Lottie Moon of China, Lalla May and Mary Slessor of Africa, Ida Scudderer and Amy Carmichael of India. Single women, all of them, lonely women, no doubt, but their loneliness accepted meant life for thousands.
Jocelyn: That's very helpful.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah. So, in the middle of all of that, I can pray for godly friendships because I'm lamenting and I can look for it, but now I'm not expecting that to be the cure all. Now I can look for connections and know that certain seasons and circumstances I don't have as much as I'd like. Soto I take that to the one who loved me enough to die for me. Elizabeth Elliott says it's resting in the perfect confidence that he will guide in the right way at the right time. He will supply our need. He will fulfill his word. He will give us the very best if we trust him. I love that. If it's best for my soul, he's going to provide it. I've got to be massaging that truth into my soul. I love this little example that she gives about her precious grandson. The family had moved. He's at a new school. He's very, very lonely. And so he's doing the right thing. He's praying and he's praying for a friend. That's a good thing. Here's what she says. The fact that his, God's answer to the prayer for a friend has so far been no, indicates to me that God does not think he needs the friend now for God's promise to supply our needs. What we don't have now, we don't need now.
Jocelyn: Wow.
Janet: Possibly his very withholding is in order that the boy may learn at this crucial juncture in his life to turn to God in prayer for a deeply felt need.
Jocelyn: Wow. That's amazing.
Janet: Isn't that? So I think it's good and right to pray. It's good and right to pursue. And then it's a Godward focus that says, and I trust you. Our selfishness is either I'll stop trying or I'll make it happen. And it's
Jocelyn: Or I'll do a cheap substitute just to not be totally alone.
Janet: I talk to many women who are leaders who are leading in some way. And I'm getting this question more and more recently. How do I deal with the loneliness?
Jocelyn: Because it honestly is lonely.
Janet: It is.
Jocelyn: It's lonely to be a leader.
Janet: It is. It is. And Lineman in his book, But Why Are We Lonely? says, Jesus had Peter, James, and John. Similarly, we would do well to have a few close friends in our own church communities with whom we can be completely present, honest, and trusting. And you know what? Yeah-ish. Here's what I would say, pursue that. For some it's going to be in your church, for some it's not. But completely present, honest and trusting, I, I don't, I don't know that I should expect that. I mean, think about it. His example was that Jesus had Peter, James and John. They were not.
Jocelyn: They were not any of those.
Janet: They were not. The disciples did not offer that to him. His was still primarily one way, but they cared about him and that was okay. When we realize that, even those who are facing the loneliness of leadership, they may realize they have more support and friendship than they recognized. It's just not everything.
Jocelyn: I'm thinking about our leader care group right now that I'm a part of, and I think it would be wrong for any of us leaders in that group to say, I want that from the other people. I want them to be completely present, honest, and trusting. But I think It is helpful in our leader care group when I go into it with that intention for them.
Janet: That you're going to provide that.
Jocelyn: I will be present when you talk, I will be honest and I will be trusting and you can trust me with your information that you share in leader care group. So it's interesting, like, I think leadership is lonely. There's a lot of reasons why I think leadership is lonely, because the buck stops with the leader most of the time. But I think that we can do that for each other in a way that mirrors what Jesus would do for us.
Janet: So it's good to pursue that. And it may be, like, those leaders, I don't even know who they all are and don't need to, but This group is not all in the same area.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: So it's not like the people in my area know me, but they've pursued where can I get some of that deepening? But it won't be everything.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: But it's good to pursue that
Jocelyn: But it's a helpful tool.
Janet: Yes But we live all of that with eternity in view. In the help booklet She says this life no matter how tragic or how joyful It's the worst we'll ever have.
Jocelyn: Isn't that good news?
Janet: What awaits us is joy beyond imagination.
Jocelyn: That's so helpful.
Janet: Yes. And that gives me confidence. I can reach out and risk rejection. I can reach out and be for other people and desire it and pursue it rightly and not get it.
Jocelyn: And not get it.
Janet: It's okay. Dewitt says we should rejoice that the best of this life leaves us wanting something more and better. It's never enough.
Jocelyn: That's true.
Janet: What we're longing for is going to come. Intentionally meditate on God's goodness. I think that's in so many areas. We talked about that in the episode we did on discontentment. Where are we intentionally meditating on his goodness? Because if there will always be a bit of loneliness, if I meditate on that, That's going to take me selfish places. But in that loneliness, I can still meditate on his goodness and intentionally spend time with others. It's not the cure all, but in my church body, when my goal is to love and I'm able to risk and be vulnerable because my anchor is in Christ, it's a beautiful thing. Seek to minister to others who are lonely and trust God with yours. DeWitt says, Almighty God eternally loves a Christian. So this reality, appropriated horizontally, restores our Edenic ability to be vulnerable. Because I know I'm eternally loved, vertically, now I can be vulnerable, and it is safe then to risk unveiling the clumsy, embarrassing, and otherwise hidden parts of who we are.
Jocelyn: Very true.
Janet: I can do that now. I can move toward others, Lineman says, with trust and hope again. Not because your next community won't fail you, but because God will never fail you. So now I get to begin to build relationships on a common purpose, not primarily focused on each other, but together, let's live out our mission, which is going to mean loving people who are different from me. They don't think like me. They don't get me. They don't understand me.
Jocelyn: All the things that would normally make us feel like lonely and isolated.
Janet: Lonely. Yes.
Jocelyn: It's okay. We can be different because we're united through the gospel.
Janet: Yes. And I love that the Bible assumes we're learning in community. Our growth in Christ is never meant to be done alone. We talked about, we talk about my personal relationship with Jesus, but that's kind of a new way to say that. We really should also think about. It's our relationship with Jesus as a community.
Jocelyn: As a community. Yeah.
Janet: That's part of diminishing, not eliminating the loneliness as we sing. Even in church, I've noticed I travel a lot. Sometimes I'm watching church online at an airport. I don't sing when I'm at the airport.
Jocelyn: Come on, Janet.
Janet: I know it feels weird.
Jocelyn: What is wrong with you?
Janet: I watch it. And it's not as meaningful. Even being in churches with people I don't know. It's wonderful to know that God's people are serving him anywhere.
Jocelyn: But it's very anonymous.
Janet: My family and we're singing together and I look up at the worship team and I know most of them, I know they're not perfect, but I know they love Jesus and they're trying to grow. Like there is something.
Jocelyn: Raw and authentic about that.
Janet: Yes, that is different. We're designed to do that together. And we shouldn't isolate from that because it's not everything. And I thought this was really helpful, DeWitt says this, a key dimension of loving our neighbor as ourselves is curiosity about them. And a genuine interest in their story and interests and sorrow and joys and trials.
Jocelyn: That's so true because you often think like, I wish someone was curious about me. I wish they asked me questions. I wish they wanted to know what I like. I wish they would ask what is difficult about my day. Like, what? We don't do that for other people either sometimes.
Janet: No. And to think the joy is really going to come in being interested in someone else. Not them being interested in you.
Jocelyn: Yes. Not them being interested in me.
Janet: Ask God. Don't just think that's not what I'm like. It's not what any of us are like. Ask God to grow an interest in others for their sakes. Brent and I were just recently spending time with a couple at our church. We've known him for many, many years. He's retired now. Such a kind, generous man. I said to Brent later, I would never have done what this guy did, but it was fascinating to me. He was somewhere, saw woodworking in a store. Turned it upside down and saw who'd made it and it was a really cool piece. So he called the guy never met him. And here's what he says to him. I saw this. It was really cool. And I thought you know what the person who would make something like this must be a very interesting person And I wanted to talk to you.
Jocelyn: That's so cool. I would do that.
Janet: And I'm like, that's-- and he said so he's like Okay. And he said, can we get some time? The guy's like, how about tomorrow? It's an older man who nobody talked to. We don't know that.
Jocelyn: That's so funny.
Janet: He knew nothing about him. And he said, I went over there. We had a great time. And I learned so many things because he truly was interested in the other person.
Jocelyn: In the other person.
Janet: He wasn't doing it as a ploy to get something back. He just really wanted to know about him. And he's like, I made a great friend. I'm like. What does it say about me that it wouldn't occur to me to do that? I'm selfish. But I thought, thank you. Like that was such a
Jocelyn: That's amazing,
Janet: a cool thing that he did and he's such a joyful person. So what was he doing there? When I understand where my loneliness ultimately comes from, when I'm growing in getting shadows and tastes of it from God and others, now I just get the joy of looking for who could I be that for? And that's what this man did.
Jocelyn: It's so cool.
Janet: He was that for this person. When we understand that we should expect a level of loneliness, we're gonna stop trying to eliminate it, and we're not gonna put that weight on our relationships.
Jocelyn: That's, I think that's such a critical point, like to know that we should expect a level of loneliness will just let us be cool with it. Like, okay, here it is.
Janet: Yes. Then we're gonna be able to see them anyways. God may be mitigating that loneliness by giving us little bits of friendship.
Jocelyn: And that will be so joyful and you'll be so thankful.
Janet: Yes. Instead of, I can't believe they said it that way. They called to let me know they were thinking about me and then they didn't know the perfect way to encourage me.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: But I'm like, wow, they called. That was nice. We'll stop saying she doesn't understand me perfectly or the way I'd like and we'll start saying, you know what? I could be completely alone and look what God's provided while I wait for my future of being fully known and loved. And it's going to come. So. Loneliness is painful.
Jocelyn: And I think that's helpful that we're acknowledging that. We're not saying it is something that it's not or it's not something that it is.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: It is. It is painful and it should be painful because it represents a separation.
Janet: It's the result of the fall.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: Howard says, our pain has a purpose. It's not frivolous, or pointless. It's not a matter of bad timing or bad luck. It's part of a well designed master plan devised by the master. And I love that, which means then I can do all of this with hope. Elizabeth Elliott, you can't end without some of her thinking. She says it's possible both to accept and to endure loneliness without bitterness when there's a vision of glory beyond. In circumstances for which there's no final answer in the world, we have two choices. Accept them as God's loving choice for our blessing. This is called faith. or resent them as proof of his indifference, his carelessness, even his non existence. This is unbelief.
Jocelyn: I think that's really helpful because there are some things that we really do long for and they're really good.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: To be married is a good longing. To have children, to see your grandchildren,
Janet: to have believing spouse, to have believing children. Yep.
Jocelyn: Think of all the really good things that we can want.
Janet: Yep.
Jocelyn: And, you know, we don't have power over whether they happen or not. And if they don't happen, we can say, this is God's loving choice for my blessing.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: And I can come to a good place where I don't, it just ripped me apart for the rest of my life that I didn't get that thing that I wanted so bad.
Janet: Yes. Yes. So consider Jesus. This is the hope that I just really want to end on. Lineman says this in his book, Jesus has come into our world, shattering the darkness, bearing rejection and loneliness on our behalf and setting us free to receive lives of connection and fellowship. And one day, all evil and brokenness will become a distant memory. Heaven and earth will join as one. The believing dead will be raised physically and we will live forever in the fullness of God's presence as a new city, a new family. Every tear will be wiped away and every wound will be healed. We will belong to God and one another without a single disruption or challenge forever and ever.
Jocelyn: That is very beautiful.
Janet: And the fact that we long for that explains why we're lonely now.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Because we're not there yet.
Jocelyn: And that's what we were created for.
Janet: And that's what we were created for.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: To that place.
Jocelyn: Yes.
To keep from missing any future episodes, please sign up for our newsletter on our webpage joyfuljourneypod.com. From there you can also subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, or Spotify. You can also visit us on our Facebook page or Instagram at Joyful Journey Podcast. If you have questions or comments for us, you can email us at joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their website.
