Investing in Relationships
Janet Aucoin and Jocelyn Wallace break down Titus 2:3-5 by sharing bot the context of the passage and application of Paul's calling for the "older women" and the "younger women" in the local church. Main passage: Titus 2:3-5
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Transcript:
Resources:
Books
Adorned: Living Out the Beauty of the Gospel Together - Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth
Blogs/Articles
100 Questions to Fuel Mentoring Relationships - Revive Our Hearts Blog
How to Create a Mentoring Culture - Revive Our Hearts Article
Partnerships to Promote Counseling Progress - Faith Ministries
Janet: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Alexandra: I just want to make it as totally simple and no brainer as possible for ladies to see that
the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of
my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to
inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as
women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy. Typically, I’ll be joined by either
Jocelyn or Alexandra, but for our first full episode listen as all three of us discuss the topic of
joy.
Janet: Hello. Welcome back. Once again, I'm Janet. And in this episode, Jocelyn's going to be
leading our discussion on another area of passion for her. So what's on your mind, Jocelyn?
Jocelyn: Well, you know, as I think about the big, key concepts that guide my life, I have kind of
four big things that inform my schedule and what I think about all day long, I love the creation
mandate.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: I love thinking about why God made us, and what our original purpose was and the
gospel and how Jesus returns us to that purpose. I have also spent years and years of my
professional life, just walking alongside those who are suffering and helping them to learn how
to suffer well into handle the trials that God has given them. I also love thinking about how our
theology informs our thinking, which we'll get a chance to record later on in this year. But today
we're going to talk about the topic that really guides my schedule and informs like what I do on
Mondays when I record my lessons for mom to mom. And what I do on Wednesdays, when I
invest in my small group, and things like that. So today we're going to talk about investing in
each other, specifically from the passage in Titus 2.
Janet: Excellent. Before you go on, I want this for everyone listening, going all those other
passions. So creation mandate, we've done a whole session on that, which I believe was episode
two. Joy was number one. So then episode two, I believe it was the creation mandate. We also
have done an episode on trials. We've done an episode on unjust suffering. So some of your other
passions and then , probably January, February, we'll have one out that's going to be on your
thinking in theology. So today we're going to get the third of your fourth.
Jocelyn: Guiding passion of my life. So anytime you're studying a passage of scripture, it's really
important that you're not just like reaching into that passage and pulling it out of context and
reading it devoid of the letter that it was written within. So I'm going to start by just explaining a
couple of key things. And you'll see how this really applies to even our life now, in the long run.
So let's talk about the context of the book of Titus. Paul wrote this letter to Titus who was a
Gentile from Macedonia, who was actually one of the converts that was led to Christ by Paul. He
had a gentile dad and a Jewish mom. So, you know, that would be super confusing for him to
know how to live a life in Christ. So he, as one of the converts of Paul had been with Paul on
some of his adventures, including some pretty big times of controversy in Jerusalem. So he was
traveling around with Paul, during his missionary adventures, supporting him. I'm assuming
teaching with him, learning from him. And they landed on this Island of Crete in the
Mediterranean sea and evangelized a couple of the towns there. But for a different reasons, Paul
wasn't able to stay. So he left Titus there to finish discipling these new believers, to know the
truth that is in Jesus and also how to apply it to their daily lives. And then to teach these new
congregations how to be organized local churches. And unfortunately, Titus just had a ton of
opposition and even some insubordination in those churches. And most likely, probably Titus
had written a letter to Paul to give him kind of like a progress report on how that assignment was
going. And most likely the letter of Titus in the Bible is Paul's response to that progress report.
So I am assuming by reading it, Titus reported that there were some things that were not going
well. So here's the thing, the people who lived on Crete were known for being a certain kind of
people. And in Titus 1: 12, Paul says that even their own people said that the Cretins were lazy,
evil, liars, and gluttons.
Janet: Wouldn't you love , that's what I'm known for.
Jocelyn: They were known for living completely by their wicked desires. And so here's Titus
trying to set up these new local churches on this Island that was known for just like totally
wicked people. So Titus was there to teach them the truth that is found in Jesus instead. And he
was there to share the story of the gospel and then call them to live in a better way. So he's there
on the Island. He's teaching these new believers that there's this better way to live. Jesus' way
and that because of their salvation, they should learn truth from Jesus and then start to obey it.
Which, you know, that's the same as our life now. So there's this whole population. They're
known for being evil, lazy, liars and gluttons. And it's Titus's job to teach them a different way.
And so how does he teach this? He accomplishes this mission by teaching the Cretins to live a
new, better way. By doing this. He taught a couple of them the truth, and then he deployed them
as mentors to teach other people and to train other people to live the same way. So we're going to
be looking at Titus 2, and in verse one, it says this. "As for you Titus promote the kind of living
that reflects wholesome teaching" or as the ESV puts it, "teach what accords with sound
doctrine." So for the first step, Titus was going to teach the older men to be self-controlled,
worthy of respect, and wise. So that they'd have sound faith and then be filled with love and
patience. And the second step, which is what we're going to talk about today is in verse three,
Titus is told to train the older women. So it says this, "similarly teach the older women to live in
a way that honors God. They must not slander others or be heavy drinkers instead they should
teach others what is good." So Paul's telling Titus teach these new believers in your churches to
live in a way that honors Him, that reflects that their lives are being, and have been, shaped by
God's standards of what is right and good. Instead of the older women just sitting around and
gossiping and slandering each other and injuring their reputation by talking bad about them,
instead of just drinking and being entertained all the time and being controlled by alcohol or
other substances, what they should do with their time is invest in others so that they could also
learn how to live in a good way. And then the third step is this Titus says next in verses four and
five, "these older women must train the younger women, so they will not bring shame on the
word of God." Then Paul tells them some specific ways, I would assume it was like in response
to some of the problems Titus had brought up that the older women can train the younger women
to do a couple of really specific things. To love their husbands and their children, to live wisely,
to be pure, to work in their homes, to do good and to be submissive to their husbands.
Janet: You know , I like that you say there that we think that would kind of make sense that some
of these specific ways were specifically addressing the weaknesses in the Cretin culture.
Jocelyn: Exactly.
Janet: I think that's really helpful, because it's not like let's look at this and this is all the women
are supposed to be.
Jocelyn: Oh, totally. Or some random thing. Like,
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: Let's just pick these four things
Janet: And the principles are really important and they certainly apply today because quite
frankly, we're in kind of a Cretin culture
Jocelyn: And we also need to know those same things.
Janet: Yes. But there's more.
Jocelyn: Yep.
Janet: And he specifically, and I think about that. Okay. So even as I'm mentoring, it's not just
mentor
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: these categories. It's these principles. And then look at the woman in front of you,
Jocelyn: Exactly.
Janet: And see where her weaknesses are. I love that. I love that.
Jocelyn: Totally. So for the fourth step, Paul then goes on to teach the older men what they
should be teaching the younger guys. And I'll let the men study that on their own. And then he
teaches what it would look like for Christian employees to relate to their bosses and do their job,
which is very helpful to know. And then Paul concludes this. And here's the really important
reason why we're doing this. Verse 10 says "then they will make the teaching about God, our
savior attractive in every way." The ESV says that "in everything they may adorn the doctrine of
God, our Savior." So you have to ask why. Paul is teaching that when older men and women are
first trained by the truth that's found in Jesus, and then they train other people to live by God's
standards of what's right and good, we're making the gospel attractive. When those who were far
from God are made right with Him by repenting of their sins and believing in Jesus' death as the
payment for their sins, then their lives begin to be changed. So they're able to live the way that
God created them to live, like the creation mandate. It just makes the gospel beautiful to those
around them. It's a super attractive way to live. It's very inviting.
Janet: And it certainly says something to the concern that, well, I'm just a mentor. Are you
kidding me? Look, what's your part of!
Jocelyn: It's critical. Yes. So we have to remember their reputation the Cretins had. First of all,
they were known for being lazy, idle, useless people who didn't like to break a sweat. They hated
working or exerting themselves. They were known for being evil, which what a terrible
reputation, harmful wicked, immoral people who basically loved to sin. They were also known
for being liars. And when you look at what that word actually means, it means making false
statements to deceive others intentionally. So they were saying bad things to make other people
look really bad. And they were also known for being gluttons. Like they just like to eat and drink
excessively kind of like little piggies at the trough. So instead Paul was teaching Titus to train
them to be the opposite. So be hard workers in your homes, do good to those around them. Don't
do evil, wicked, harmful things. Live wisely and be pure. Be submissive to their husbands and
love their families.
Janet: And who wouldn't want to live around people who had been changed like that.
Jocelyn: If I was a fellow Cretin living around these changed people, I wonder, like, what would
I be thinking about these weird people who suddenly started looking a lot different?
Janet: I know. And I think, okay, the first thing is probably this doesn't even make sense to me.
Like I don't even... that looks weak, you know.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: If I'm used to lying to get ahead, what's their deal? And I'd probably mock it. But then
over time I learn I can trust them. And I learn that actually I'm probably drawn to it when I start
to see the fruit it produces. This might take a while.
Jocelyn: Especially when you're the one that has good being done to you. You know, what a
benefit.
Janet: Yes. Then at some point who is this Jesus that's causing people to be so different?
Jocelyn: So Paul is saying the good news of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection makes it
possible for these wicked Cretins to be returned to the reason that God had created them: to love
and be loved by God. To so enjoy their relationship with Him, that they began to emulate Him
and live out His good purposes. So Titus is urging the older women to teach these specific things
to the younger women. And they were directly in response to the weaknesses that Titus had been
reporting. So, it was being noted that the women were not hard workers, and they were not doing
good to those around them with their time and energy. And instead Titus, who was their pastor,
encourages them to train the women to use their time, to be abundantly productive, like the
creation mandate teaches us. To rule their area that they were responsible for in a way that
demonstrated God being orderly and His productivity. And they maybe didn't see how to live
wisely and be pure. So Titus was training the older women to mentor those younger women to
make decisions based on the truth of God and because of that to stay away from evil and
foolishness. So apparently also they weren't seeing the need to love and serve their husbands and
kids. So the older women were to train them how to do that. And he was basically saying. Older
women observe the needs in the lives of the women around you, and then meet them, using the
truth of God as the standard of what is right and good.
Janet: And I love the fact that God's standard and these principles, overarching principles, they
transcend time. They never change. So we can be confident when that's what we're mentoring in.
Jocelyn: Exactly. I remember early on when I began to read the Bible for myself and I actually
really wanted to understand it. One time I read Titus 2 and it just hit me like a ton of bricks. I just
remember thinking, Oh, my word it is okay that I do not know how to be a grownup. I know this
passage is teaching older women how to teach the younger women, but I remember reading it
and thinking it's okay to be a younger woman who doesn't know how to live sensibly.
Janet: It's reasonable.
Jocelyn: Yes. It's okay to not know how to keep my home or care for my family. And it wasn't
like, okay, now go embrace being ignorant. But it was just like, this weight fell off of my
shoulders. There were so many things I did not know how to do well. And so the passage isn't
saying, okay, now embrace your weaknesses. Love them.
Janet: Put them on Facebook.
Jocelyn: Post about them on social media. Take a photo of you being weak and then glorify it on
Instagram. It's just saying it's not natural to know how to live rightly. And it's okay that you have
to be taught.
Janet: It should make it easier then to ask for help.
Jocelyn: Oh yeah.
Janet: 'Cause that's normal.
Jocelyn: Exactly. It's average. I remember thinking, it's not natural to know how to be a mom. Oh
my word, thank you. It's not natural. And this kind of like threw me off the first time I read it. It's
not natural to even know how to love my husband. Cause we kind of think of love as, as natural,
like, Oh, it just flows out of me. It does not flow out of me. I need someone to teach me how to
love people. I remember my initial reaction being like, thank you. Thank you for someone
normalizing what I have found so hard. But then my very next reaction was, okay. I need
someone to show me how to do this. It's okay that it's not natural, but I am not cool living in this
place.
Janet: Yeah. And we shouldn't. We shouldn't. I mean, the scriptures teach us that we need to
mature. I remember you thinking about some of the things that surprised you. You know, I
became a Christian in college and then worked. So I know how to work. And one of my fears
with having children, we decided that we wanted me to be home. I don't really know how to do
that.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And I don't like to be ignorant and it seems like you just should know how to do that.
Someone shouldn't have to teach you. I had learned how to work. I knew how to do my job. I
don't know how to spend my time at home.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: I'm going to be bored. What am I supposed to do all day? Like, do I play with them all
day? What's supposed to happen? How do I structure my time when I don't have at eight o'clock
I start. At noon I have an appointment. How do I structure my time? And, I can remember
watching women. And they modeled, they mentored me without knowing it. I remember talking
to a lot of women. I remember sitting down with one woman because I was a structure person,
and now I'm home with none, except crying baby. And meeting with her and saying, okay, You
were a business woman and then home. And she taught me how to create my own structure.
Jocelyn: That's cool.
Janet: You know, here's how I manage my home. Here's how I list out what needs to be done so
that then I have the freedom to go do other things. But I manage my home first. Just all of those
things. I'm so thankful for those women.
Jocelyn: As I've gotten older and thankfully matured in Christ over the past two decades of living
for the Lord. My attention has shifted from thinking a lot about those younger women truths, and
more onto the older women responsibilities. Not that I'm a old woman, but
Janet: You're older than you were.
Jocelyn: Older than I was. In the same way that I was encouraged as a younger woman to know
it's not natural for me to know how to be a grownup woman with all these responsibilities. I
needed now to realize that these newly adult ladies around me, these new moms in my life, new
wives, that's where I was 20 years ago. They don't know how to naturally live for the Lord either.
And one of the ways that we fellow older women can sinfully respond to that is to compare our
now kind of like more mature selves to them, and be like, Oh man, they are headed for trouble.
Look at that girl. She just talked back to her husband. I saw that. Or, girl, she doesn't even know
how to keep a schedule, or keep her house clean or nap when the baby naps that is going to hurt
when it catches up to her. And I think, that would reflect the Cretin mentality. That's what they
were doing, sitting around gossiping and slandering. And once you start gossiping, it doesn't take
long until you like start adding and embellishing.
Janet: Oh, yeah.
Jocelyn: And making it worse.
Janet: Because it's even better if you exaggerate a little.
Jocelyn: Exactly. So we can really get into this us versus them mentality, where they're so
ignorant and we are so experienced. And honestly, that's nothing but pure pride.
Janet: Yep.
Jocelyn: We were all in the same place. And we are all in the same place unless we have the truth
that's in Jesus. We're just different shades of evil.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: Without Jesus we are ignorant, foolish following after whatever passion or lust we think
is going to satisfy us. And Ephesians 4 says that without Jesus, and His truth in our lives, we are
all empty headed idiots. Every single one of us. But there's this better way to respond. And that is
to invest in each other by observing needs and intervening. So just like Titus taught the older
women in the churches in Crete to do. His list in Titus two is important to see. They're universal
truths that all women need to understand. But basically we just need to be observing needs in the
lives of those around us and intervening. Like offer to help. Offer to meet needs. Build
friendships. Love those that are still learning how to be grown-ups and mature in the Lord.
Janet: Yes. And I think it's so important to remember, like you just did, remember we were all
there. Because
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: That's going to make it easier to love and have compassion instead of judgment. We are
really not any better. And I remember as a new parent, I had so many questions. You know, is
that a normal cry? I found out later it was not. I needed to go to the doctor. How do you know?
How do you know what's just a normal thing. I'd have so many things I would talk to Brent about
it because he's who I talked to about everything. He was as new as I was, he was just as tired as I
was. And we called that our pooled ignorance. We were together as ignorant as we were
separately. But my friend Connie, I remember her because she didn't wait for me to call her. She
would call me and say, how are things going? And then I felt more comfortable going, I don't
know. Do you think that this is going to sound silly. And she would laugh. And I remember her
saying, I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing because I remember having that question and it's
like, then you realize. She's remembering I'm not any better. Someone had to tell me. Now I get
to tell you. I remember another friend, Laurie, finally believed me. I can't tell you how many
women I said, I don't know how to cook. I don't know how to cook. I don't know. And they all
said, yeah, I'm not that great either. I'm like, no, you don't hear what I'm saying. My husband is
starving.
Jocelyn: Literally do not.
Janet: My, I
Jocelyn: Poor Brent.
Janet: Yes. He had like the same meal over and over. Chicken casserole. I made it 10 years later
and he told me it was too soon.
Jocelyn: Oh, my word. That's funny.
Janet: Yeah, I needed help. But she finally said, you're serious. And she gave me a shopping list.
I went to her house with those ingredients and I left with meals.
Jocelyn: That's so cool.
Janet: I was learning from these other ladies. And I can remember that when someone asks me.
Jocelyn: I was thinking back on a couple of experiences as I was pondering Titus 2. And I had a
friend, Nikki. When I had my first baby, I was at a baby shower. And we were all talking about
co-sleeping. And I remember, I remember very rebelliously --well, I didn't think I was rebellious
at the moment, but it was rebellious. I said at this baby shower with all these other new moms
that were from my ABF, Brian doesn't want the babies to sleep in our bed, but I don't care what
he says. They're sleeping in bed with us.
Janet: Yeah. That'd be rebellious.
Jocelyn: It was rebellious. Cause I just wanted it to be easier to nurse and stuff, you know.
Anyways, so my friend, Nikki, I think it was probably like one or two days later, she called me in
the middle of the day. And she's like, I just wanted to chat with you about a comment that you
made at the baby shower. And I just wanted to ask you to think about whether that might not
honor God to have that kind of attitude. And she just replayed my comment at the baby shower.
And I just remember being rightfully rebuked and like crying on the phone and repenting. And
she was like, it's okay, just obey your husband. Like, he's not asking you to sin, he's helping you
understand his preferences. And so that older woman who is still in my life now, that older
woman saw me not taking care of my family well, and not submitting to my husband. And she
just lovingly brought it up.
Janet: Yeah. And it had nothing to do with co-sleeping or not. It's about loving your husband.
Jocelyn: Exactly. That wasn't the point.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: And then another instance I remembered, actually it was Nikki's parents who I'm also
friends with. In a particularly very, very, very busy time of life. When I was working full time, a
lot of hours in a very stressful job. And, trying to parent. I stayed at their house for a little while,
while I was also getting my master's degree. And they said, we'd like to take you out for supper.
And I was like, Oh, awesome. I'll go out to supper with you.
Janet: Free meal.
Jocelyn: And during supper, they said, do you remember when you and your husband went on
that missions trip to the Dominican Republic a couple of months ago? And we watched your kids
for you. We think you're failing as parents. And we want to urge you to reconsider some of the
decisions that you're making in your life.
Janet: Wow.
Jocelyn: It was, it was jaw-dropping and interestingly, my husband and I had already, at that
point in life, we had come to the conclusion that the way our family was going, it just didn't
work for me to keep working. I was working like 60 hours a week and getting a master's and it
just wasn't working. And we had already come to the conclusion that we needed to make
changes. And so that supper turned into what they had prepped themselves to be a confrontation,
it really turned into brainstorming. How to do this thing that my husband and I had decided we
needed to do,
Janet: Beautiful.
Jocelyn: But those two older women in my life, they saw a problem. And instead of just sitting
back and being like, Oh, that girl is a loser. They said, I love you so much that I'm going to bring
it up, and I'm gonna,
Janet: Yes. Which was a risk.
Jocelyn: It was.
Janet: It might've hurt your relationship.
Jocelyn: And they could see I have enough life experience that if they keep on this path, it's
nothing but trouble ahead of them. And because I love Jocelyn and I love her kids. And I love
her husband. We're going to have a risky conversation that we hope will help her to understand
how to live for Jesus better. It was so precious. When you think about the fact that we're
investing in each other. We should bring to mind some kind of monetary thoughts. When I buy a
stock, -- I love looking at stocks and buying stocks-- I take the amount that that stock costs and I
willingly give it to my stock broker. I watch the market. I choose a good time because I believe
what I'm getting in exchange for that money is going to be worth it. And probably hopefully like
the reason I do this is because I want to make a profit.
Janet: Yep.
Jocelyn: I'm giving up that initial investment. And I'm willing to be made poor of that investment
money. Cause the profit of the return is worth the expense. And it's helpful to realize that that
same truth is in effect here. We acknowledged that living the way the Bible tells us to live in
Titus 2 it's expensive. You're spending time. It costs time to be involved in each other's life, and
it costs caring. Like it's easy to have nonchalant shallow little friendships because all you ever
talk about is the weather and stupid stuff. But when you really care, like it includes conversations
and thinking about what you're going to talk about and even spending time together. It's going to
cost me not doing something else so that I can get to know somebody outside of my family more
deeply and even talk to them frequently enough that I'm actually fellowshipping with them. So
my involvement in their life, it's going to be a real cost, a real investment.
Janet: You know what I love about that is. That's true, but any other investment on earth, there is
a risk that it might not pan out.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: With this investment. It's a hundred percent guarantee that God will honor it. I don't mean
that you'll have the best relationship with that other person.
Jocelyn: Where they will magically be fixed, or whatever.
Janet: No, but it will honor the Lord. And God has promised that. So this one, this investment is
risk free.
Jocelyn: It's a sure thing.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: When we live this relational interconnected way, where we invest our lives and our
energy in each other, we're living out the gospel because Jesus met our greatest need. I had a
need to be made right with God, the Father. So because of my example, I get to look at Jesus. I
can see needs and I can emulate Christ to the sisters in my church. And as I serve each other, all
sorts of gospel conversations are going to come up. I'm going to be able to speak truth into their
life. And possibly, I might have an opportunity to lovingly point out a way that they might want
to consider growing. I'll be able to walk alongside them as they practice it. We're going to be
given all sorts of opportunities to give them the strength of Jesus as they practice obeying. But
basically like we're locking arms together as we make the doctrines of God as beautiful as they
actually are. Living God's way, it's attractive. It's a better way to live, a better motivation, and
better results.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: And when I'm investing my life in serving other women in their time of need, I'm living
out the community that Jesus had in mind. Of course it's imperfect, but it's growing.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: But this was Jesus's idea. And the return on that investment is that the gospel of Jesus is
adorned. Our investment of time and caring, it will always result in a huge profit. Even if that
person doesn't change.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: I stepped out in faith. I was obedient. My trust in Jesus improved. And most likely when
they listen to God's word and practice it, their life is going to improve too.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: It's just a much more satisfying way to live. That's what I was designed for. And when I
live that way, I'm joyful.
Janet: Absolutely.
Jocelyn: And one of the cool things about this way that Jesus set for the growth process is that
I'm always going to be kind of slightly older and more mature than someone else, but I'm also
always going to be slightly younger and more immature than someone else. So I'm personally,
always as a person going to be both in the younger woman category and also the older woman
category. So when my hand is reaching down to those who are younger than me to invest in
them, I'm also reaching up to the older women that are more mature that have gone before me.
Like they've already gone through this stage of life. They're in the next chapter of life. So I'm in
this place where I'm constantly both giving and receiving wisdom from the Lord. And learning to
live that out in practical life. Which is really good for humility. Like if you only ever function as
the older women, all you're doing is just like handing out wisdom and never receiving it. So it's
just so good when we're living with both hands,
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Like one hand receiving, one hand giving.
Janet: It's such a beautiful picture. And I'm imagining a lot of the ladies listening to this saying, I
love that idea. Philosophically, I agree. I see it in the Bible and I even am attracted to the idea. I
want to be allowing my relationships with other women to influence me for the Lord, whether
I'm the older or younger, but that's not my reality. That's ideal, but I don't even have those kinds
of relationships in my church.
Jocelyn: You bring up a super good point that I think we really need to explore for a minute.
Romans 12: 5 tells us, "so we though many are one body in Christ and individually members,
one of another." So Jesus is telling us that the point of Him coming to earth to take on a human
body, to live a perfect life, to die as a substitute for me, and then be raised to life again, was to
make it possible for rebellious humans to be brought back into a good relationship with God. So
he's saying for those who've trusted Christ for salvation, we have been united with Christ. But
here's the thing. In that same token, we've also been united in Christ to all other believers that
have already been united to Christ. There is really not a possible way for us to experience our
salvation individualistically. The very moment we are saved we are united to both Jesus and also
all the other believers who are already in Christ. So by that very fact, positionally we're in
relationship with God through Christ. And we are in relationship with all other believers. But
here's, what's possible. It's possible that we may not be in fellowship with the other believers that
we are united to, like we're not living it out in that practical kind of sense, but positionally, we
are united to other believers. We're in relationship with other believers, just because of our
salvation. I used to be so fascinated with this weird word koinonia. And when I research it. What
the Bible teaches us is that koinonia means fellowship. When that word is used in the Bible, it
means, we are in partnership where we are contributing to the wellbeing of others by helping
them. Isn't that so cool.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: We share with that.
Janet: That that's God's plan.
Jocelyn: Yeah. We're in communion with them. So it's true that we're in a relationship with a lot
of other believers just because we're united with Christ, but we may not be living in close
fellowship with them like we should be. So as we read the scriptures, it's really urging us to
embrace our relationship with God. But also our relationship with others through Christ too.
We're called to give up our individualistic ideology and identity when we come to Christ, and
embrace the unity that we have with others who are in Christ too. Like practically, that might
involve us telling ourselves that because I'm in a relationship with each other in Christ, I actually
have to function like that. Like I have to fellowship with them. And hopefully it's going to look
like both the older and the younger women and men reaching out to each other. But it definitely
doesn't mean sitting back and waiting for someone to reach out to you. I understand fellowship
or koinonia to mean that we have all bought in to the positional fact that because we're in Christ,
we are also united to each other and we are aggressively living for the benefit and help of each
other. We are partners. Like I remember when we were in marriage counseling, that was like the
most amazing concept that I learned. Dude, you're on the same team.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Quit fighting. Like
Janet: We're on the same jerseys.
Jocelyn: Yes. We're partners, we're on the same team, pursuing the same goal. Like we want to
love and worship Jesus to the glory of God, the Father, and live to show Jesus' love to each other.
We aggressively live for the benefit and help of each other.
Janet: That's true. And now, people who are listening, including me can be thinking, okay, what
in the world is that actually going to look like?
Jocelyn: I love that question. So let's just brainstorm through some of the applications for an
older woman. I think one of the first applications is, you need to assume that younger ladies need
the input of older ladies. It's easy to assume that if a younger woman needed help, they'd ask.
And at the same time, the younger ladies are like, If they thought I needed help they'd offer
Janet: Or if they care.
Jocelyn: Yeah. So assume that what God said is best, is best. Women living life involved in each
other's lives because our community is an effect of the gospel. So like community is an
application of our theology. It was a pretty revolutionary and life-changing moment when I
learned in our Ephesians study a couple of summers ago that when God raised us to new life in
Christ, I immediately locked arms with every other human who was already a believer. I just
remember thinking like, Individualism is not possible inside of Christ's body. We're united.
Janet: We're part of one body.
Jocelyn: We're one body. I was raised to new life, first of all, in Christ, but second of all, in
community with all these other believers who are already in Christ. So my life in Christ affects
all these other believers lives. And their life affects me. We're united.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: Theologically, our lives cannot be separated. We're intertwined like this crazy vine. We
can't separate each other.
Janet: And I think the older women, we --because I'm becoming one of those we --need to hear
that because so many older women that I talk to don't believe the younger women want to hear
from them.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And then to realize, I don't know what they think they want right now, but I know what
they need.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: So we have to get involved. Good. I would also say, then examine your life. Look at what
Titus 2 says to older women. That they need to be living in a way that honors God, that they're
not slandering, that they're not heavy drinkers, and that they should be teaching what is good. So
what does that mean? It means they're not going to be gossiping or slandering. What is my
conversation like?
Jocelyn: Especially when you do have a younger women sharing with you. I mean, if they're
sharing their junk, they need to trust you that you're not going to go blab about it.
Janet: And so if no one is talking to me, is it because I'm not trustworthy?
Jocelyn: That's a great question.
Janet: That they're not going to tell me. How do I handle stress pressure in my own life? Do I go
to substances? Whether that's drinking, or what am I, am I distracting? Or am I learning how to
deal with problems so that I even have something good to share? Am I living in a way that
honors God? Which on a practical level I believe means do I repent quickly? Not, do I live
perfectly?
Jocelyn: Yeah, totally.
Janet: But do I repent quickly? Do I know enough about truth to know how to teach what's good?
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And if not, how am I working on that?
Jocelyn: Yeah, I would also recommend older women to keep on building proactive relationships
with people that are older than you, or more mature than you in your faith, because there's still a
million ways that you need to keep growing and continuing to grow and hear from other older
women, is one of the things that helps to keep us humble. In the same token, build productive
relationships with those that are younger.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: So when you're getting together with someone younger than you, you're not just
shooting the breeze, like, remember that's what got the Cretin women into trouble. Like they
apparently didn't require it much time working and they just sat around being idle and chatting,
and that led to drinking too much. And that led to gossiping, and then that led to slandering. In
reality, when you hang out together, there's going to be a lot of sitting around and talking. But it's
not idle talking. It's investment talking. You're investing your attention. You're investing, getting
to know that person better. You're investing, caring. And as you get to know them, you're going
to see ways they're struggling and in that moment you can say like, okay, I'm starting to see
maybe a habit that would show that they have a need. Is there some way that I can meet that
need? Or do I know somebody that I can connect them with that's going to be better than me at
teaching them that thing? Because I don't know everything about everything. I know a couple
things that I can share.
Janet: About a few things.
Jocelyn: Like I love budgeting. So if someone needs help budgeting, dude, I'm your girl. But
there's a billion things that I don't know anything about. But I know a lot of people that do know
about that and I can connect them.
Janet: Yep.
Jocelyn: This is one of the areas that I've been really working on during like our quarantine year
is like, if I care for that person, I'm going to look for ways to pray.
Janet: Yep.
Jocelyn: And when I ask someone, how can I pray for you? Like, I literally need to pray and I
need to offer support in that moment. And as you hear what life is like for them in the specifics,
you can ask good questions. You're not just being nosy, but you want to help understand their
situation. You want to rejoice when things are going good. And you're not finding stuff out to be
judgemental. Because if someone shares their prayer requests with you, you can turn that into a
prideful judgemental walk where you're like, Oh my goodness. I'm glad I'm not like that. But
you're learning about other people to help them evaluate their thoughts using scripture. It's not to
be prideful, but it is to see where can I be involved in that person's life to love and serve them in
some way.
Janet: I think part of that, you know, when we talk about not being prideful. One of the things
that helps me when I'm desiring to invest in someone younger, is being willing to share. Letting
them know that I'm not any better.
Jocelyn: Oh, totally.
Janet: Not just saying, Oh, I'm not any better than you. How about if I share with you what I
really --
Jocelyn: Let me tell you some examples.
Janet: Yeah. When I didn't love my husband well. When I said in a baby shower, I don't care
what my husband thinks, you know. Or when I handled something really wrong. Or for me when
I cried the whole first year of marriage, because I really wanted my husband to be everything to
me, and poor guy, there's nothing he could say that would win. So how did I learn to solve
conflict? How did I learn? How did I learn to love my kids? Which is going to include times I
didn't.
Jocelyn: Which I think is that is so helpful. But to know that it's not natural to know how to love
your kids. Cause some people think that you give birth and the baby comes out and you're like,
Oh, filled with loving, warm, fuzzy thoughts.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: It was not my experience.
Janet: Mine was terror.
Jocelyn: I was, it was horrible.
Janet: And I was terrified. I remember. Yes. And it should come naturally. Of course not.
Jocelyn: That's crazy.
Janet: Of course not. How do I take care of my home? How did I learn to do that? How did I
learn to live wisely within budgeting? How did I learn to pay taxes? I have sat with so many
wives to teach them how to budget and pay taxes, because that's a way they can serve their
husband. And they don't know how. Well I didn't either, but now I can help somebody else with
what I had to learn.
Jocelyn: And it's so important to see that this is not a marriage and parenting thing. This is a life
as a woman thing.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Every woman is going to need to know how to keep a home, whether she lives with her
parents or her husband, you have to know how to keep your home. You have to know how to be
wise. You have to know how to be pure. This is not just a life chapter thing. This is a, how do I
be a godly woman thing.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Another thing that I would encourage the older women to do is to invite the younger
women to participate in their life. First of all, it's fun. Cause you're the body and community is
super fun. But second of all, it's educational. Younger women can see with their eyes what you
were talking about. Like, you can have some great conversations while you're folding laundry
together. And like, I don't know, but for me learning how to fold laundry was a thing. I didn't
know how to make it fit into the cupboards correctly, but there's just so much important stuff that
comes up when you're living life on life. And God never meant for us to be alone or lonely. He
meant for us to live in community.
Janet: Yeah. And I think it's going to involve asking good questions. You know, learning to be a
good listener. I believe in our show notes, we're going to be putting in there Revive Our Hearts
has a questions for mentors list.
Jocelyn: Yeah. It's a hundred questions to get to know each other better and to hear wisdom from
your mentor. It's a super cool list.
Janet: I love that, because some of us are like, I don't know. I don't even know what to say. In
this, here's some questions, but get used to asking questions. I would say, you're going to learn
more and be more effective if you ask questions more than you teach.
Jocelyn: Oh yeah, totally. I also think it's really good to be willing to take risks. I have this kind
of little speech ready that I'm willing to take out whenever I think it's needed. It's something like
this. Hey, I'm Jocelyn. I'm so excited to meet you. I noticed your little guy is being a handful
right now. You are doing great, mama. What can I do to help you?
Janet: I love that.
Jocelyn: You know, feminism took root in our hearts in part because we're all recovering raging
rebels. But another reason feminism took root in our heart is because genetically God designed
us to care for each other, to care about other women. And that can be super sinfully expressed,
and we can get our gender roles completely upside down and backward and totally violate the
creation mandate. But God designed us to support each other. Stick up for other women who are
trying to obey God. Be on their team. Risk yourself to love and serve them. And if you don't
know them yet, that's a great moment to get to know them. And if you don't know them very
well, it's a great opportunity to deepen your friendship as you work on something together. We
have to see that we Christian women, we are on the same team. We love Jesus. We want to love
our families. We want to live good, pure, wise lives. Be the support for others when you're trying
to live that way. To be risky. Assume that others will be open to your love and support. Don't
assume that they're going to be all irritated if you get involved.
Janet: Right. And even if they do, it's a little harder to get irritated. I love how you phrase that.
When you said your little guys being, what, a bit of a handful. But you're doing a great job.
What, mom's going to be mad by that.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Because when you first said that, I thought, Oh, I can just see a mom bristling. I know he's
being a handful. Yeah, you try it. And then when you say you're doing a great job.
Jocelyn: You're doing a good job.
Janet: What can I do to help you. That humility of, he must be being a handful because you
clearly don't know how to parent, like I do. No, no, no, no, no.
Jocelyn: Or probably cause he's tired and
Janet: Yeah, who knows.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And I've thought, and when you say it's risky, you know, I tend to be a people pleaser and
that's hard for me. Like, I'll see a mom in Meijer with a screaming kid and I know how hard that
is.
Jocelyn: Oh yeah. I can remember it like yesterday.
Janet: So, my temptation is to just not look at her so she doesn't feel judged.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: But I'm like I, and occasionally I'll do it. Not as often as I should. To say, Hey, hang in
there.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: I know it's hard. Hang in there. And I feel like, what, what am I afraid of, but a way to
support another mom. You know, I want to do that better. Which is part of the next thing I think
we would say is, serve them, don't judge them.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: You know, Galatians 6: 1 - 2 talks to us about seeing needs and serving and helping, but an
understanding, I think from the beginning, Genesis 2: 18. What really differentiates men and
women? I think in part we were designed to be helpers.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: I know everybody helps. Men help, but we were designed somehow relationally that way.
So let's do that. Let's be meeting needs, but not being judgmental. Truly loving.
Jocelyn: And, you know, to be honest, when I look back at my life, I really wish that there had
been more older ladies who had assumed I needed help and kind of like butted in, if you want to
call it that. I wish the older ladies in my life had been maybe a little more proactive and assumed
that I needed help. Cause for quite a while, I did need help and I didn't even know it. And so I
just want to urge the older women, not to assume that the younger women don't need your help.
They don't need your input. They don't need your friendship. We need each other. We need each
other.
Janet: So what would you say to younger women in that vein, where like you, they may be
thinking, I wish somebody would offer help and they haven't. What would you say to them?
Jocelyn: Well, basically like everything I just said for the older women, but flipped.
Janet: There you go backwards. So listen to this on rewind. You got it.
Jocelyn: Backwards. So I think first of all, for the younger women, realize it's not naturally easy
to know how to honor God with your marriage.
Janet: Yes. Be humble.
Jocelyn: It's not, it's not natural to know how to love and raise your kids for the Lord. It's even
not natural to know how to be a hard worker in your home, or to be wise, or to be pure, or to do
good. In fact, it's completely counter-cultural. Until I started loving Jesus, was a raging feminist.
And everything in our culture screams individualism, personal rights, love yourself first be
self-actualized. You know what? It is hard to know how to be a mature, godly woman. And when
you get stuck, ask questions.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Being in community is an application of our theology. And I really cannot understand
Christianity as an individual. Our lives are intertwined. We are united to each other. So when it's
not natural for you to know how to do something, get involved with others who can help you.
Janet: Yeah. And so, you know, shortened version of what you said last time, build proactive
relationships with those that are older than you. And I've had younger women talk to me, you
know, I would like a mentor and, and we think, okay, it needs to be this official thing. And it can
be, we have a program for that. But I will tell them, is there somebody that you'd like to get to
know and they'll tell me. And I'll say, well, don't walk up to them and say, would you mentor me
for the next eight years.
Jocelyn: The rest of my life.
Janet: Because they don't think they have anything to tell you. Cause they have their own issues
they need to work on. Why don't you just invite them to lunch and then say, can I ask you a few
questions? So be proactive. If there's someone that you're watching, and you want to learn from
them, invite them out for coffee, and ask them some questions.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: You be proactive and not just shoot the breeze. Same thing you said to the other, make it,
intentional. Be willing to be real with them. Not just to be real, but being able to say to them, I
watch how you interact with your husband or kids. And I got to tell you, that's not what it looks
like in my home. My husband and I did a parenting conference recently, and a sweet woman
came up to me afterwards. And she said, when you gave this example of during a Q and A time
and something came up and I said, and you wouldn't say whatever it was because I said, cause
that would be scolding. That's not teaching. She said, I thought, that's the kindest way I talk to
my children.
Jocelyn: Oh dude, Whoa.
Janet: And she was like, and she's in the middle of getting help. And she was already getting
help, but it was like hearing that example, she was humble enough to say to me, I thought that
was like the better way than what I was doing. So then I could help her. And then when I could
encourage the help, she's already getting up. But just the level of humility to go, well, you know
what I see you doing, that's not what it looks like in my home. Help me.
Jocelyn: Yeah. I think that if there's a way you're struggling, just be willing to share that.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: with older mentors. Get feedback. And I would encourage you if you're married, run
that advice by your husband. Because that's one way that you could really undermine your
husband's authority is to do what people are advising you to do without talking to your husband
about it. But as you are building those proactive relationships, care about that older woman. The
Bible tells us to love each other deeply from the heart. We're supposed to have our emotions
involved. She's your older sister in the Lord. Love her. It's okay to love the people that are
pouring into you. And I think one of the things, as you're asking questions to an older women is,
don't be defensive. Like be willing to share honestly, because sugarcoating the situation is not
going to produce authentically helpful --
Janet: You're not going to get help.
Jocelyn: There's this funny phrase called liars or friars. When you get your hair done at a
cosmetologist. If you lie about what you've actually done to your hair to start with, and they
process it for like, with a chemical process, your hair is going to get fried, so they don't care what
you've done. They just want to know what's going on so that they can treat it properly. And it's
the same way in mentoring, like don't sugar coat it.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: Because you're going to end up with faulty advice. Tell honestly what's going on, so
you can get honest help. We are in like inside of relationships, all sorts of stuff is going to get
talked about, but we're not just looking for cultural help. Like, Hey, teach me how to make the
perfect California curl or like, I need to learn how to make a cheesecake that doesn't crack. I
mean, that's going to be part of what we talk about probably because it's interesting,
Janet: Sure.
Jocelyn: But it's not just that we're talking about how to live for Jesus. And when you're asking
for help, be humble. Like when she's offering her help to you, an older woman is probably
believing the best about you. Like she's not judging you. She's remembering the last time she
had to deal with screaming kids in the checkout aisle or bouncing a check or not knowing how to
pay taxes. Like she's not looking at you thinking, Oh my goodness, what a loser? She's thinking,
Oh girl, I remember.
Janet: So then listen to what they say and evaluate. They're not God. I remember my husband
telling me once, I can always tell when you've been hanging around different people, because our
structure of how we parent completely changes.
Jocelyn: Overnight.
Janet: And it was like, Oh, because they said, I need to sit time and play time and a read time and
a thought time and at this time and that time. And he was like, I'm overwhelmed. Let's talk about
what we need in our family. So I listened and it can be very helpful. And then we talked together
about how can I evaluate that? How am I doing with loving my kids? How am I doing with
caring for my home and caring, loving my husband, how am I doing with being wise and pure?
So, asking then I need to listen, and then I need to evaluate.
Jocelyn: And I think one thing that I really want to emphasize to younger women is, we're not
encouraging you to live according to the standards of other people. We're encouraging you to live
according to the standards of Jesus Christ. And there are commands in scripture. And there are
applications of the commands. When we listen to the commands of scripture, where it says, you
know, be submissive, that's the command. But the application of how you're submissive is going
to look different in from family to family. So I want to really caution you to not just take this
advice from the older women and you know, force it to be implemented in your family.
Janet: Jocelyn said it looks like this in our home.
Jocelyn: Which is really dangerous because then, what you're encouraging is extra biblical
standards, which are, which would lead to legalism and rebellion even. So, in that same note,
when an older woman invites you to participate in her life, be willing to take her up on the
opportunity.
Janet: Absolutely.
Jocelyn: And I'll tell you what, it's probably not going to always be like a picturesque coffee date
or a Pinterest worthy event. Like, if you want to have time with the successful older women,
you're going to need to adapt to their availability. Cause they're busy. Like they know how to run
life, so they're doing it. So when they offer you to be part of their life, jump on it. Getting to see
and observe someone older and wiser will be inspiring. But, it's going to be reality. Not like some
perfectly organized picture worthy event.
Janet: No, I love that when I had little kids and we were over the college ministry, I would invite
them over. And I remember one precious international student who did not know Jesus. And so
she had a lot of time on her hands. She would come over. I'd fold laundry. We would talk. She'd
watch me interact with the kids.
Jocelyn: Laundry. It's such a theme.
Janet: Oh, it is. Yeah, really. Cause you know, I don't have to think a lot when I do laundry so I
can talk. I remember chatting with her. And I can remember that ending in a conversation where
ultimately we talked about the gospel. She didn't understand it. And then probably two or three
months later, she came to Christ.
Jocelyn: Wow. That's so cool.
Janet: That was cool. I remember another conversation with a college girl who'd gotten married.
Had built a lot of bad habits. So the first year of their marriage, they call the black hole. It was
rough.
Jocelyn: Oh, that's rough.
Janet: We're talking. One of my kids came up and asked me something and we're talking about,
so I stopped to deal with that and talk to them about what it meant to honor the Lord more than
what they felt like right then. I can't remember what we were talking about. And I remember that
woman I was talking to, the young lady, young mom, young wife, looking at my child and saying
to them, Trust me learn it now. Or when you get older it's a lot harder.
Jocelyn: Oh, precious advice. Wow.
Janet: It was so good. She was just learning it then, but she was getting to watch. And now she's
married, lots of children and she'll get ahold of me. And I know she's working at teaching her
children now. And it's beautiful to watch.
Jocelyn: That's so cool. When you're the younger woman, be willing to ask good questions and
learn to be a good listener. And I'm going to keep on pointing to that Revive Our Hearts
questions for mentoring list that we're going to include in our show notes. Ask questions and
listen, and just be willing to take risk. Allow someone else to care about you and your life. Allow
other women to love and serve you. It feels so foreign to be served, but be willing to be open and
honest and trust. They're not getting to know you just to judge you. Like they literally love you.
Janet: So we've talked a lot about building proactive relationships. I do want to say one thing. I
know I have been in seasons where I don't have these relationships. And I don't want this to add
more pain to your pain. Your responsibility before God, you cannot make yourself have an older
woman who loves you.
Jocelyn: Right. True.
Janet: And you cannot make a younger woman, allow you to love them. Your responsibility is to
pursue it, to pray for it. And then to trust the Lord, even in the loneliness. That's apparently the
better thing that your soul needs right now. So when He's not allowing the ideal, well, we're not
in an ideal world. So there's a whole lot of things that God says in His word that we don't fully
experience.
Jocelyn: We don't get to realize. Yep.
Janet: But I can pursue it. And I can say, even if I never have that kind of a friendship, I can still
pursue being that friend. And I can take the risk in my own heart of praying for that and not just
hardening. So trust the Lord even in that.
Jocelyn: In conclusion, I just want to ask our listeners to evaluate how are you using your time?
You know, we have the same issues now that the Cretins did.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: When we have free time, what do we do with it? Do we sit around and eat and drink to
excess and entertain and amuse ourselves to death? Do we gossip and slander and even injure
others' reputations when we have the time to shoot the breeze? Or like, are we living
intentionally giving up living by our indulgences and instead investing in each other to live,
according to sound doctrine. And that's kind of how I want to conclude. I want to urge each of us
to be involved. Be invested. Care about the women around you. Care that the doctrine of Jesus is
adorned and made beautiful by our lives. Invest in the success of others and allow others to
invest in you. And as you remember that we are in relationship with each other, because of our
relationship with God, and our unity with Christ, it really allows you to partner with each other
through life. So you're participating in sharing in their life. And I would tell you, there is a lot of
investment to live this way, but the return on the investment, it is so sweet. To have a life filled
with joyful relationships, it's a blessing that gives us an appetizer of heaven.
Janet: Excellent. So one resource that we didn't bring up yet, but that both of us love is the book
Adorned by Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth.
Jocelyn: Oh, I love that book. So good.
Janet: If you're thinking I would be willing to mentor or be mentored, but I'm not really sure.
And I'm uncom, you know, I'm nervous. Go through that book together. It'll do a lot of it for you.
And then you'll give you
Jocelyn: Super, super easy to read.
Janet: A lot to talk about. So I thought, hopefully you're motivated to take a risk, knowing the
worst thing that can happen is you honor God.
Jocelyn: Yeah. The worst. If that's the worst thing,
Janet: That's okay.
Jocelyn: you're going to have rewards from that.
Janet: Exactly. So join us for our next episode. We're switching gears a little bit and we're going
to talk about the challenges and the unique opportunities that we have for the years that God has
us being single. And recognizing that, one of the statistics I read a couple of years ago, was over
the half the church is single.
Jocelyn: Wow.
Janet: Between not married yet, divorced, widowed, over half the church is single.
Jocelyn: That's very interesting.
Janet: How do we handle that area of life?
Jocelyn: Cool.
Janet: We'll do that on our next episode. But for now, remember taking 60 seconds to leave us a
quick review on iTunes or wherever you're listening, allows others to find us more easily. So
thank you.
To keep from missing any future episodes, please sign up for our newsletter on our webpage
joyfuljourneypod.com. From there you can also subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, or
Spotify. You can also visit us on our Facebook page or Instagram at Joyful Journey Podcast. If
you have questions or comments for us, you can email us at
joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible
Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to
receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money
for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their
website.
