Judging vs Judgmentalism — with Rob Green
"Judge not that you be not judged" is often invoked by Christians feeling scrutinized. But what does Scripture actually say about discerning right from wrong versus being judgmental?
This week, Janet and Jocelyn welcome Dr. Rob Green - author, pastor, and counselor. As MABC Department chair at Faith Bible Seminary and an ACBC fellow specializing in marriage and reconciliation, Pastor Rob explores how prioritizing personal standards over biblical ones can turn righteous discernment into unwarranted judgment of others.
Visit the Joyful Journey website to sign up for our newsletter, view a transcript, and search previous episodes.
Emails us with questions or comments at joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com
Donate to Joyful Journey Podcast
Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Resources
Resources
Books
The Sermon on the Mount - D. A. Carson
Episode
Making Marriage a Safe Place - Joyful Journey
Website
Handout
Read Through the Scripture Challenge 2024
Transcript
Jocelyn: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Janet: I just want to make it as totally simple as possible for ladies to see that the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy.
Janet: Okay. Welcome back. This is Janet here with my cohost, Jocelyn.
Jocelyn: Hey friends.
Janet: And today we get to introduce one of our pastors, who we are very grateful that we get to hear from, and one of his recent sermons got Jocelyn, you know, how passionate she gets, so excited that we were able to get him on the podcast here to talk to you about it as well.
Jocelyn: I'm excited. So we were introduced to this topic last year when Pastor Green taught in a sermon called, Handling Criticism. The pastors decided to have the sermon series because we were in the middle of this theme of growing in gospel gratitude. And they were teaching us that handling criticism poorly was a possible threat to gospel gratitude. So in that series, we had talked about how critical judgmental people cling to their greedy desires despite all the ways that God has been gracious and how He's delivered us and we fail to honor God, we sometimes don't fulfill His commandments and we don't set up the next generation for success. So the pastors were exploring with us what to do if a critic is close to us or even in our homes, which that's really a hard situation. And they helped us explore if our criticism was sinful, by pushing for prominence instead of embracing God's design for them, if they were consumed with impatience, or if they were just being adversarial. And then right at the end of that series, Pastor Green helped us think about how to offer criticism in a way that would be helpful, which I found really helpful. Like, how can we offer criticism without being critical or judgmental? And he helped us to think how to intervene in a critical moment when something's gone wrong. And we need to be able to do that without sinning. So in that teaching, Pastor Green taught us a lot about the topic of judging and judgmentalism. And I was really helped by this sermon. And so we've asked Pastor Green to come and teach us about that today. We thought it'd be helpful for our listeners.
Janet: Absolutely.
Jocelyn: So the passage we were studying that Sunday was from Matthew 7: 1-6, and Janet, I'm going to ask you to read that passage for us today and set the stage about what we were talking about.
Janet: Sure. Do not judge so that you won't be judged. For you will be judged by the same standard with which you judge others and you will be measured by the same measure you use. Why do you look at the splinter in your brother's eye but don't notice the beam of wood in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, let me take the splinter out of your eye. And look, there's a beam of wood in your own eye, hypocrite. First, take the beam of wood out of your eye, and then you'll see clearly to take the splinter out of your brother's eye. Don't give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before pigs, or they will trample them under their feet, turn, and tear you to pieces". Wow.
Jocelyn: Yeah, it's clear. So in that passage, it says, do not judge. Rob, is this passage saying that we're never to have an opinion or to make a choice?
Rob: Boy, I sure hope not, or I'm in big trouble. I think there's two reasons why we can argue that's not what it's saying. One is a practical impossibility. How would we decide who we're supposed to marry? What job we were going to do or what kind of education we would pursue?
Janet: It'd be paralyzing.
Rob: It would be. Or what church to attend? How could we make those decisions without an evaluation or a judgment in some sense? But then more importantly, let's just think about the call that the Lord has to several things that we need to evaluate. The gospel itself. He criticized the church at Galatia for adopting the wrong gospel. There is no other gospel. Well, How could we make that claim without some sort of evaluative standard to say, this is good gospel, and this is bad gospel? Or in Philippians, he warns the church about the dogs and the false teachers. How would we know what that is without some sense of evaluation? In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul commands the church to actually remove a person and turn them over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh. On what basis could anybody follow that? So there's a sense in which it's practically impossible. But there's also a sense of, I can't fulfill the Lord's word without evaluating and judging in some sense.
Janet: So it's not just that it's okay to, in some sense, I'm commanded to.
Rob: That's right. I have to.
Jocelyn: We have to.
Janet: Yeah. So then, when would that judging become sinful?
Rob: That is an important question, isn't it? Because we can't just simply cut this verse out of the Bible and say that's not really what Jesus meant and move on. Right. It has to mean something. He's warning us about something here. So what is that something? And I suggested in the message. That what He's talking about is judgmentalism. That is when our judging becomes sinful. That's the word that we would use to describe sinful judging. And judgmentalism involves not only what we say or do, but also the attitude that is behind it. And thankfully this passage, I think gives us a few clues as to what the answer actually might be. So for example, when we evaluate by using our own standards rather than the Lord's, That seems to be a pretty clear indication of the kind of judging or the judgmentalism that we find in this verse to be wrong or sinful. we pretend that our own failings are either non existent or they're not significant. When we're told…
Jocelyn: It's easier to point out someone.
Rob: Oh, yeah, of course it is. When we're told to take the log of wood or the beam or the whatever out of our eye, we could say it's sinful if we just pretend like we don't have one there at all. And so there must be something about that kind of judging the judging that doesn't look at us first that must indicate sinfulness. Similar to that is maximizing a failure or a weakness in someone else. We're comparing in this text, or Jesus did, logs and specks or beams of wood and splinters. But sometimes we like to reverse that. I have a splinter, you've got a log sticking out of your head, and I need to address the log.
Janet: Brent and I in marriage counseling, a lot of times I'll say, I know I have sinned, but my sin is reasonable, yours is ridiculous.
Rob: There you go.
Janet: Which is flipping the speck in the log, yes.
Rob: And then we could ask a little broader theme, and that is failing to understand the universality of God's judgment for everybody. So those could be some clues to help us see when is our evaluation or our judgment accurate and right and fulfilling what the Lord tells us to do, and when does our judging move to judgmentalism, warning us that we're actually sinning against the Lord.
Janet: As you're saying that was even thinking that requires, even your very first one, the first thing you said was when it's our standard and not the Lord's. Theologically, totally, I 100 percent agree. On a practical level, how many times do I assume my standard is the Lord's? Just the arrogance of because I know I'm right. So me and the Lord, we're in this together.
Rob: If I didn't think I was right, I would think something different.
Janet: Exactly. So I think, wow, just even the humility to begin with, which goes back to the log and the spec. Even if I think mine's only a spec, I got to deal with that first. Or I will, or I can't even do the rest of what you said.
Jocelyn: Yeah, you won't even see.
Janet: That's fascinating. Yeah.
Jocelyn: So you had mentioned that judging becomes sinful when we evaluate by our own standard instead of the Lord's. Why is it so important to be using God's standard to evaluate something and not our own standards?
Rob: Let's just back up for a second and say there has to be a standard to make a judgment at all.
Janet: Yeah, that's true.
Rob: And we're glad for that. We're happy for that. I know when I go to the gas station, I'm going to stick that nozzle into the little tank hole and I'm going to fill it up and then I'm going to pay based on how much it tells me. I'd like it to be right.
Janet: Yes, yes.
Jocelyn: And accurate.
Rob: Yeah. That's right. If it says that it put 10 gallons of gas in then I would like to believe that it actually did. And I'm not going to test it. I'm not taking the gas tank off, pouring it out, deciding if I actually got that.
Jocelyn: You're a lightweight.
Rob: I'm going to just trust what they say. The same thing happens when we're bothered by a standard. I remember one time going to get a car repair done, and they told us it'd be this amount, and it's okay, fine, we'll do that. And then, when you get the bill, there was one time it said there were four hours of labor done on this vehicle, and we had only been there for 90 minutes, and I'm thinking…
Jocelyn: What standard is that?
Rob: I don't know exactly how this works. And because of the confusion of that, it really led to some challenging moments of what do I do? How do I respond to this? What is going on here? Am I being deceived? Are they shooting straight with me? What's going on? So I think we all have to recognize to judge or evaluate anything, there has to be some type of standard.
Janet: And we want that.
Jocelyn: And we want a standard that has a standard. Yeah.
Rob: But now why does it have to be about God's?
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Rob: There, it is tempting to use my own standard. But that is prideful.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Rob: And I can understand why we all do it. I come to this just as much as anybody else. To discipline yourself for good is work and it costs you something. And then for a person to not go through that same level of discipline, there is a sense in which your justice meter has been violated.
Jocelyn: That's true. Very true.
Rob: I disciplined myself and you didn't. And now we're all getting, this goes back to one of the stories that is in the Gospels where all the workers are sent out to the field and the first worker goes out, gets paid a day's wage. The last worker goes out, gets paid a day's wage, and the first workers are upset about that. It's just nothing other than pride, but it's there. Or sometimes we have avoided the bad. In other words, we actually didn't just discipline ourselves for good, we avoided the bad. And that can also lend us to use a standard that God didn't set in order to judge other people. And in that sense, we become very judgmental. So it becomes about my standard because it's about me. It's not about the Lord. Why does it have to be about the Lord? The Lord says that the grass withers and the flower fades, but the word of the Lord stands forever. It outlasts me.
Janet: Yeah.
Rob: And every time we find that passage quoted in scripture, it takes us back to the fulfillment of God's promises. It originally was given in Isaiah 40. And you could wonder. If you were receiving Isaiah 40's message, thinking to yourself, I don't know when this is ever going to happen. And then you live a hundred more years and you're like, I don't know when this is ever going to happen. And it doesn't happen for 700 years. And then Peter, when he writes in his gospel, he commands people to love one another. from their heart, fervently to love one another from their heart because of the living and enduring word of God. Because that's the means by which he brought about their salvation. As they heard the word, as they saw the truth later, of course, Messiah come and deliver them. All of a sudden, when they place their faith and trust in Christ, they are now the recipients of that living and enduring word. And therefore, that becomes the standard of how I judge or evaluate anything. Because that's the only thing that lasts. My standard, my way, my life doesn't last. And that means rightful judging and rightful evaluating is about the Lord and sinful judging is about me. And you know it's not hard to see how that plays out in a marriage or in parenting. Look at all this that I did for you. Now you're going to treat me like this. Who do you think you are?
Janet: I would never have treated my parents that way. And that's me the standard.
Rob: Oh, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Jocelyn: I love Psalm 89:14. It says that God's right, that God's throne is established on a foundation of righteousness and justice. And to me, it's so comforting that there is a standard that never changes because my life is stable then. Next year, it's not going to be different. God's expectation for me is not going to be altered. It will always be. And as it applies to judging It's so comforting to know that I can learn what God says and I'm not going to need to relearn a different standard at some future point to handle some future problem.
Janet: And not only does it not change, it's righteous and just, which is what we're longing for. It's just sometimes we think we're the only righteous, just one, but to realize, no, there is one that we can trust. Yeah.
Rob: And as one who receives the judgment or the evaluation, I don't want it based on the shifting winds of someone else's attitudes or emotions.
Jocelyn: Or the culture or the country or the year on the calendar. Yeah.
Janet: So talk to us more about then the part of judgmentalism that involves us pretending that our failings either don't exist or they just don't really matter.
Rob: The Lord in verse three just really drives home this point, doesn't he? Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye but do not notice It's the log or the beam that is in your own eye. And I think he's highlighting something that we tend to do.
Janet: Yeah, clearly.
Janet: For sure.
Rob: We're pretty good at evaluating other people's problems and not so good at considering and taking ownership of our own. We tease sometimes that teenagers can spot hypocrisy in others a mile away, but they can't see it in front of their nose, in their own life. .
Janet: Yes.
Rob: And there's a sense in which we have to grow out of that. We mature out of that. But we're in process, not that we're done. And so the Lord knows that for us, we are often inclined to say that our problems are really relatively small, and therefore we don't take that part seriously. And when you think about this passage, isn't that really the whole point of the sermon? As a whole. He's driving home this concern that you all are way too quick to think of yourselves as righteous.
Janet: Yes.
Rob: As rule followers, as you didn't commit murder, so you're all good. You didn't commit adultery, so you're all good. And then he just lowers the boom that actually all of that is you. So we're not allowing this passage, if we don't do this, to influence us, which is exactly what the Pharisees had done. And, just for fun, I did this in the message itself. I said something like this, pretend that I asked you later this afternoon, what did you get out of the sermon today? And you respond with nothing.
Jocelyn: That would have been powerful sermon.
Rob: Yeah, exactly. So how do I respond to you got nothing? And I could say that to you, I could say that to our own family. What did you guys get out of the message today? And if they respond, nothing, then I could say to myself what's wrong with you?
Janet: Yes, it was an amazing sermon.
Rob: It was an amazing sermon. Content and delivery was spot on. So the real issue is get your sorry self to bed early enough that you're awake on Sunday morning. And while you're at it, check your attitude on the way to church. Did you come to learn something to get a meal? Or did you come to evaluate the message to see whether or not it was good from your perspective, whatever that might be. And, if I was talking to one of my own kids, I could even say something like, I know you well enough that at least seven of those illustrations I gave apply to you. And two of them were from you.
Jocelyn: I was going to say some of them were about you.
Rob: That's right. Or, I could go back and say, Boy, they got nothing out of it. Maybe that's because I didn't say it well. Maybe that's because I connected a dot in my own head that I didn't connect for people who were listening. And therefore, it was confusing. They just didn't make that connection. And that's on me, not on them. The reason you got nothing out of the message was not because you did something wrong. It's because I wasn't clear enough. And that's a very different attitude to have. I think when we're used to having the attitude that says, my problems really aren't that big of a deal. I'm doing pretty well. On a scale of one to 10, I’m an 8.2 today. I'm doing pretty well. Then, that leads us to sinful judgmentalism, where we're just quick to respond in anger and quick to justify ourselves, defend our positions, rather than let somebody honestly, including the Lord, in this text, work on our hearts.
Janet: And what I appreciate about that is someone listening could be going, yeah, but, It really might have been because they didn't go to bed until 2 in the morning and they were nodding. All of that might be true, but you didn't start there. So it's again, get the log out of your eye first. IAre all of us willing to be humble enough to say, the most important thing is, what could I have done differently? Even if, after the log is removed and in a place of humility, you can love your child enough to say, 3 a. m. is probably not the best time to go to bed. There, even if there's something to be said, it should start with humility, because I think we're quick to, what if you know he did go to bed at three? You still start with humility, and I don't, I, that's supernatural, we don't naturally do that.
Jocelyn: And when you don't do it God's way. And you pretend your own feelings are less significant than they are. It's just so filled with conflict, like marriages, there's going to be conflicts between a husband and wife. It happens. But when you go into that conflict and you're just so adamant that it's not you, it's other person, there's literally no solution for it. You're just going to end up butting heads over and over, and it will go on for years or decades. And you'll just be like, wow, we just have such a crummy marriage. And it's because no one is willing to say I might be contributing to part of the problem. There's just a breeding ground for endless problems. So how do you see that we sometimes maximize other people's failures and minimize our own?
Rob: Oh man, we're good at this. Are we? Super good. Man, there's, my problem, then there's like your problem way up here. And, when someone doesn't respond that way, isn't it a delight?
Janet: Yes. And it's noticeable. It is. Sadly noticeable because it's rare.
Rob: Boy, I remember our family was taking a mission trip to Romania and this was right after COVID. I was wondering about a few of the rules, especially related to the vaccines, and I wasn't sure that everybody had followed the rules exactly. And so I wanted to make sure we were okay. I'm on the phone. I'm on the chat with Delta to figure out, what, are we okay? Are we not okay? Everything I can discern, we're okay. Then we get there to check our bags and I realize we're not okay. And so here we are in a very pressure filled position. A couple hours before we're supposed to fly to Romania and we got problems. And the lady behind the desk really had a couple of options that day. She could have said, you're an idiot. I realized you tried to call, but the fact of the matter is you're still not smart enough to fly to Romania today. So I don't need to do anything for you because you're just a moron. And there's a sense in which she was right. I did try, but there were some things that I had not fully understood. It was a little bit weird from my perspective and I just hadn't figured it all out. But instead she decided to say. I can see you tried, and I'm going to see what I can do to help you, and she did.
Jocelyn: Wow.
Rob: That was very kind of her, and it really stood out as a picture of I'm not going to let your mistakes be the most important issue here. I can see you called, I can see you tried. We obviously didn't get on the same page, but we're going to take some responsibility for that. And we're going to help you.
Jocelyn: That's so helpful. So refreshing. And also foreign. Yeah. It does not happen often.
Rob: And boy, when it happens in relationships, isn't it delightful? Oh, yeah. Yes.
Jocelyn: And helpful.
Rob: So our marriages, we grow closer to each other. We're more interested in being together because that's the way our spouse responds, where a person who just maximizes our failures. We push away from, don't want to be near them
Jocelyn: because they're not safe. It's reminding me so much of the safe place to have your weaknesses exposed episode. When you are willing to be humble and own up to your side of it, it does create a safe environment for weaknesses to be exposed. But when you don't, it's dangerous. Cause you're about to get zinged.
Janet: I was listening to a man being interviewed about marriage issues and he was talking about the log versus spec thing when it comes to conflict resolution. And he made the statement that when frequently in our pride, we think we see clearly what the issue is, but when you've started from pride, you already have a honking log in your eye. So you can't even see to solve the problem. So when you think you see clearly that you're the problem, you're totally blind. You were from the beginning. So it's two people walking in, if they're like that, blind. And I just, that visual of trying to solve a problem. When you neither one can see and both of you believe you see clearly because of your pride. I don't know, I just thought, wow, so am I willing to deal with what I might even think is a little issue of mine so that I'll see clearly.
Rob: No doubt.
Janet: Yeah. The scriptures teach us that there will be someone who judges. And, thankfully, He will do that justly. What does Scripture teach us about God's judgment of humans, and how can we be ready for it? How should that affect us?
Rob: 2 Corinthians 5, 10 says, We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds done in the body according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 1 Corinthians 3 gives us the picture of We build on the foundation of Christ, wood, hay, stubble, gold, silver, precious stone, and then it's put to the test. The testifier, and we're rewarded by whatever remains. So I hope that actually serves as a motivating force. We know that God is going to judge righteously. We know that at the end, He's going to settle all accounts, and we do that alone. If we're motivated by that, we will be less inclined to be judgmental and will be much more inclined to be thoughtful in the way that we evaluate, in the way that we judge, in the way that we critique ourselves and other things happening in our life.
Janet: Yeah, I think about that knowing that and then knowing He will judge based on his standard, which isn't how many times were you right? How many times were you able to convince the people around you of your rightness? Way to go. It will be Humility, loving others, caring more about unity than your way. You know when I realized that's what I'll be judged on it changes even the point of our conversation when we're having conflict.
Jocelyn: Absolutely. I know in our early marriage, I was not known for my lack of judgmentalism.
Janet: Wait, there's a double negative.
Jocelyn: I was known for being critical. And I'm telling you what, that came back to haunt me because I was not a unity builder. That is not a, you don't feel closer to your spouse. You feel prickly. You need to keep yourself safe from each other. So how does being critical and judgmental come back to haunt us and to harm us?
Rob: This was the hardest part of the message to write. It was the hardest part to think about, and it was also the hardest part to just evaluate. Many people don't realize that when you are crafting a message, it's working on you. Yeah. Before it ever makes its way into the public.
Jocelyn: This was the hardest part of the message to write. It was the hardest part to think about, and it was also the hardest part to just evaluate. Many people don't realize that when you are crafting a message, it's working on you. Before it ever makes its way into the public.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: As your congregation, we appreciate that. Yes. Totally appreciate that.
Rob: So it's, you're writing these words and you're thinking, I don't know if I'm going to live to Sunday. This could be it. He could strike me dead right here, right now. Maybe what he'll do for effect is just let me go up there and then strike me dead in front of everyone. This is how it works, people. It's happened before,
Janet: I was going to say, I think there's an example in Scripture.
Rob: There is an example in Scripture. So we have a little bit of fear and trepidation, and this section was especially the hardest to write for that reason. The first thing that it does to us is it says that God is going to use our standard. against us. And boy, when you think about that, it's whoa, I don't want that.
Janet: No.
Rob: I might be minimizing my problems, maximizing somebody else's problems, but I don't want that to go in reverse. And verse two says, For in the way you judge, you will be judged. And by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Verses like that should just stop us in our tracks to say, whoa. There's no way for me to get around the reality that God is going to use this. Now, sometimes the Lord waits until the end before he does that. But other times if we have eyes to see, we'll see it now. Let's just take a simple example. Somebody like our kids, our spouse, text us and we don't respond. And they ask us about that and we're like, yeah, it's too busy, blah, blah, blah. And then a week, month, six months later, you start texting people and you want answers to your texts. Because that's why I texted, exactly. And they don't respond. And you're like, what's wrong with you? How dare you? Are you a defective human being? What is wrong with you? I sent you a message. You're supposed to respond. And it may be right there in that moment you realize, oh my goodness. This is actually the Lord letting my own standard come right back to me. It's okay for me to ignore you. To pretend like you don't exist, to pretend like your needs or wants don't matter. But here, now, it's my needs, or it's my wants that all of a sudden don't matter. And instead of blaming the person, that should be the moment of repentance. Yeah. And so it brings suffering in the sense that the Lord uses the very standard that we're using to judge others to hit us.
Jocelyn: That's a very effective example. That's super helpful.
Janet: I think and how gracious of God to allow you to Handle that and give you at least an opportunity to recognize it humble yourself and repent before you face him
Rob: No doubt
Jocelyn: which really like it just making me think so much of my life is lived in those like texting moments Not Sunday morning theology like that's where the theology is seen and it just shows how much humility you need to have in all of your life. Your life needs to be saturated with humility that God’s righteousness is the perfect standard.
Rob: I had three ways in which I think this suffering plays out when we're judgmental. That was just the first one. The second one is you remain blind to your own failures.
Jocelyn: That's terrible.
Rob: It isn't it?
Jocelyn: It's terrible because then you just keep on doing it.
Rob: That's exactly right.
Janet: And everybody else can probably see it.
Jocelyn: And everyone else is suffering because of you.
Rob: You don't mature. You just stay immature. And when we see people who, for whatever reason, are unable to mature physically, it's noticeable. Wow, I wonder why that person wasn't able to grow to a normal size or able to function in a normal adult way. But we don't see that necessarily spiritually, how devastating that is to the person or to us. Wow, we stay in our immaturity. How sad it is. So when I don't take the log out of my eye, when I'm not willing to embrace this, then I'm the one who suffers continual or perpetual immaturity. And that's sad to me. I don't want to live that way, and I don't think the average person listening to this podcast would want to live that way. We don't want to stay stuck in our immaturity, but we're not going to grow and move forward if we're unwilling to address the logs that are in our eye.
Jocelyn: Think about how uncomfortable it would be to be in a 30 year marriage, functioning like you did the first five years, if you never grew beyond that. Oh, that would be terrible.
Rob: We used to have a saying at a place that I worked before I got into ministry and that is there's a difference between 30 years of experience and one year of experience you repeated 30 times.
Jocelyn: That is so true. Yeah.
Rob: And it's true in marriage. It's true in our parenting skills. It's true in our, how we relate to people in our churches. We want to get past the first year. And the second year. And then we wanna continue growing.
Jocelyn: Growth is good.
Janet: And when I think about, practically then, what does that look like? I think about my earlier years of marriage and I knew I was here at this church, so I had enough good teaching that I knew I was really upset with Brent for something and I knew. I had to deal with my part in my heart first before I could go say all the things that I knew needed to be said. But if you had asked me in that moment, I still believed I had a splinter and he had a log. And so I think for anybody listening when you're like, yeah, but what if it really is the other way around? Just realize right now you can't see. So deal with what you think is your splinter. Whatever level you think it is, at least deal with that. And I still remember it. And it's funny. There's so many things I don't remember, but I remember this because I was in my bathroom, which means my kids were little because that’s the only way to be alone. So I had my door closed, kneeling by the bathtub because it was the only place I could go to be alone. So that tells me how many years ago it was. And I was praying and I can't tell you how many times I would say, God, I know my attitude is not right, but he shouldn't. Okay. I know we're not here to talk about that. I know I need to. Yeah. But, and I, it was a battle to just own my part. I'm going to say, I don't know, it felt like forever, but it was maybe 15, 20 minutes of doing that, which is a long time to me. And finally my soul was quiet as far as there's not guilt. I have, I see my part, I have confessed it. And I got up thinking, now out of love for my husband, I could share with him and there was nothing to tell him. He hadn't done anything wrong. And I could not see that. I really believed that I had a speck and he had a log, but I had to deal with my speck first. And it was only in dealing with it that I realized I was actually the only one with a log. He didn't even have anything.
Jocelyn: And in the situations where your husband or the other person does have a problem. After you've done confessing and you've humbled yourself to see what your part of the problem is, then you can lovingly handle the sin and the other person without being all accusatory and
Janet: Because my goal is I just love you. And that's when I realized I have nothing to say except, forgive me.
Jocelyn: You're sharing it because you're concerned for their soul and not because you want them to know that they were wrong. And so even if there is something that needs to be talked about, it will at least be talked correctly.
Rob: Yeah. I want to bring that point up too, but I wanted to tell you a story first.
Janet: Oh. Story time.
Rob: Yeah, I was very judgmental when I was younger. Probably still am, but hopefully less judgmental than I was. And I was in college, and this particular time, I was really convinced that this girl ought to like me. Now, this is not my wife, okay? I was convinced that this girl ought to like me.
Janet: Because why wouldn't she?
Rob: Absolutely. There was so much to! What in the world? And I badgered the fire out of her. I tried to help her grow and mature and, so I'm not paying attention to the logs that are in my eye. And here's when it really hit, and it was sad for a lot of reasons, but the most important reason is that I think I hurt her. She said this to me, I still remember where it happened. As crazy as that sounds, it was traumatizing. She said, I hope I never see you again in my life.
Jocelyn: Whoa. Yikes.
Rob: And we were 20. Now, I, and the reality is I never actually saw her ever again in my life, but initially the pride side was still there and saying, she doesn't get it, but as it reflected on that more as I've gotten older and as the Lord has matured me, I realized that I actually hurt her. Me being unwilling to deal with the log in my eye actually was part of the reason or the motivation that I had to actually harm her, although I didn't think about it that way, until she got to the place where the only thing she could say left was, I just hope I never see you again in my life. And. Imagine if that was actually your spouse.
Janet: And there are spouses who feel that way. There are. Yeah.
Jocelyn: And they're bound in a marriage that they're not going to leave, but it's terrible.
Rob: And that gets to the third point is that you're actually unable to serve people well. Because if the log is still in your eye, just as you mentioned, you don't see clearly.
Janet: Yeah.
Rob: And in the counseling room, sometimes I like to illustrate that with. A tissue box. And I'll just stick it right up to my head and I'll ask them if I can inspect their eye. And they just, they laugh, it's a joke, they all get it. But I said, what's not funny is when that actually happens in your home. Because now it's actually harmful to people. I'm going to dig in your eye, but I don't see clearly. I don't have depth perception, and I can't even really tell whether or not it's a speck or not. Maybe it's just, The way your eye is made. And yet it looks to me like you've got a problem. And so we harm others and ourselves. Why this whole subject becomes so important is that I don't mature and I hurt other people and I'm really not functioning in a way that honors Christ very much. Because I'm not following the commands that he gave.
Janet: Then, given how scary we don't want to do that, then help us think through when and how should we judge?
Rob: There's the hope part, isn't it?
Janet: Yeah.
Rob: And we must. We started out that way. We said it's a practical impossibility not to judge or evaluate, so we have to. And we can't keep the other commands that the Lord has given us without doing it. So we have to. So it's pretty clear. But as you look at the passage, some of the indications for what's sin get reversed in order to demonstrate righteousness. So by using God's standard, now instead of relying on our own, instead of inventing something that we thought is a good idea, we're using His. Now that's going to require that your listeners actually have a saving relationship with Christ. They can't expect to have God's standard if they don't even have a genuine relationship with Jesus. And so for those who are listening and you've just joined into the podcast because somebody told you about it, then I hope that you will see all of what we're talking about here is actually based on a belief that you are a sinner before the Lord and that you need to repent of your sin and place your faith and trust in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross for your salvation. And until a person's ready and willing to do that, they're going to remain in judgmentalism. There's no way to avoid it.
Jocelyn: If you're dead, you're going to think dead thoughts, speak dead words, not going to have words of life.
Rob: That's right. And then it requires that we actually know our Bibles well, because what we're talking about here, judgmentalism doesn't happen in like planned events. There's a moment.
Janet: Yes.
Rob: And we respond in that moment. I don't know who invented the illustration, but I first heard it from Paul Tripp. And that's the water bottle illustration. I don't know if he invented it. But if he did, then this goes out to him. But, the idea is, he would ask a question like, why did water come out of the bottle? If they shook it, and of course, people would generally say because you shook it. But, and that's his whole point, no, it's actually because water was in the water bottle. So if the Lord's Word is not really just oozing out of us, if we don't sweat the Lord's Word, then it's not going to come out in the moments of our greatest intensity and temptations to sin.
Jocelyn: And that's one reason why I'm so thankful that we've been having the Read Through the Bible Challenge this year with our podcast listeners. And obviously, we need to study God's word in depth so we know specifically what it says. But a wide view of scripture and great biblical knowledge that you would get by reading the Bible over and over every year is going to help you to think biblical thoughts and consider God's ways as the way that you want to live. And so I'm excited that our listeners have been able to join in on that challenge with us. And every year that we read through the Bible, I'm learning new things every year. And I've done this for years.
Janet: when I think practically, what does that look like? Look to look at God's standard versus mine and Rob, you mentioned, first we coming to Christ. Now that I'm a believer and I see God's standard for me on the one hand, of course, he wants me to look like Jesus eventually, but he's pleased with every step of growth. And yet, as many times with our spouse, their growth is not enough for us. It's perfection. So if somebody used to be lazy, the fact that they're not as lazy as they were is not enough for me, which I could think is God's standard, but it isn't God's standard. He encourages my growth. He doesn't just attack me that I'm not perfect. perfectly Jesus. He encourages my growth. So if I'm gonna have God's standard, I'm not gonna be demanding perfection of those around me. I'm gonna be encouraging their growth. Just one way that it's not my standard, even about a biblical character quality. It's God's standard of encouraging growth.
Rob: Yeah, James 1 actually says that we have to believe that God gives wisdom, but he gives it without reproach.
Jocelyn: I love that passage.
Rob: Which is what you were getting at. We're often willing to give wisdom, but we remind them how much of a fool they are.
Jocelyn: How irritating it is that I have to.
Rob: You do realize I have to tell you this because you're a moron. And the Lord is not like that. And we're so thankful that he's not, that he gives it to us one step at a time. We've been talking also about looking to ourselves. We have to do that. We have to live in verse five. Where, first, take the log out of your own eye. And what is that? From my perspective, that's just repentance. That's true, genuine repentance. You take the log out of your eye. And so for, some people are wondering what does that look like? I love to go to the confession passages in scripture. The Psalm 51's, the Daniel 9's of the world. You just look at those and say, wow, what great confessions. And those serve as illustrations for us on what it looks like to actually take the log out of our eye. Not just admit that it's there. Oh, yeah, I got one. Okay, that's a start. But it's not removing it yet. And the text says take the log out of your eye. Not just admit that you have a log.
Janet: That's a good point. Because I talk to a lot of people who are like, I know I'm bitter, but could you help me deal with blah, blah, blah? And here's what I always say. No, I have absolutely no idea how to help you with that. What I could do is help you get the log out of your eye so you'll see clearly and maybe you'll know. How often do we just want to say, I'm humble enough to acknowledge it, so I would like to keep it there while I do something else.
Jocelyn: Here I am in my brokenness, continuing to be broken forever.
Rob: And then, with the motivation of helping others, I mentioned that. A little bit earlier, one of the damaging things that it does is it actually harms people. But the whole purpose of judging, if you will, is to actually help.
Janet: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It should be. Yes.
Rob: The Lord is warning us for the judgment that doesn't help. the judgmentalism that's about us that refuses to take the logs out of our own eye. But if you really turn it around and say what's it for then judging is actually to help.
Jocelyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob: It's about following the Lord's commands. So if I'm going in that direction, then that's a good thing.
Janet: Yeah.
Rob: And then, we haven't talked a lot about verse 6, although it is a fascinating passage. But it's just reminding us to place our focus on the Lord, His Church, His people, not on the world. The world, we can't expect to believe this. They're not going to accept this for what it is.
Janet: It doesn't even make sense to them.
Rob: It doesn't make sense. You're right. And, So we can't just simply let it be like, oh, we got to judge everybody else. We have to start with us. John MacArthur, in his commentary, was really clear about this. He says it's clear that Jesus does not exclude every kind of judgment. It would have been unthinkable for a Jew to have thrown to those dogs a piece of holy meat that had been consecrated as a sacrifice in the temple. Jesus’ point is that certain truths and blessings of our faith are not to be shared with people who are totally antagonistic to the things of God. Such people are spiritual dogs and swine who have no appreciation for that which is holy and righteous. And so his point is, look, let's start with us. Let's focus on the inside, us, not on the current version of whatever we see out in the world. We can't expect that they're going to adopt this kind of mindset. After all, the Sermon on the Mount is a kingdom ethic. How can we expect a kingdom ethic out of a group of people who have no heart for righteousness?
Jocelyn: Yeah, I appreciate our pastor so much that remind us frequently that judgment begins in the house of the Lord. Like we are responsible to make sure we as a congregation are obedient to the Lord and allow God to work on other people the way he would like to.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah.
Jocelyn: So do you have any resources you could share with someone who would like to grow in being less judgmental, sinfully, and to be judging more biblically?
Rob: The first thing is to immerse oneself in the word. You just have to immerse yourself into scripture and to see the contrast between Jesus and the Pharisees. To focus on grace, learning how to give grace. I didn't mention it yet here, but in the message I talked a lot about when we minimize our own sin, we tend to view ourselves through the lens of grace and mercy. But when we maximize the sins of others, we see them through the lens of justice. So I'm going to give me grace and mercy. I'm going to give you justice. And by learning to focus on grace, that certainly helps. Then. D. A. Carson's work on the Sermon on the Mount is just a delightful read. It's got maybe one page on this topic, but the whole idea and the whole sermon as a unit fits together. And so what he says about one passage often has implications to what occurs in another passage. And then I think it's good for people to read commentaries. I don't think a commentary is only the world of the pastors, I think a good commentary can actually help people. And now that they are more available than ever before get commentary on Matthew. MacArthur's would be one of them. I don't know of a book off the top of my head that relates to judging versus judgmentalism. Maybe there is one that somebody's gonna, comment on and say, this is the one.
Janet: If they do, I'll tell you. There you go.
Rob: But if we immerse ourselves in the word, if we're reading good material, and then we're just honest about dealing with the logs that we know about. Then we're going to be in a lot better position.
Janet: Asking the Lord to show us is pretty powerful because he knows how to do that. I remember. Yes. I remember when you said grace, my mind just went back to I don't even know, several years ago in our marriage, we were doing our annual goals. We've been out to dinner and it's like, what do you want to work on this year? And all that. And so I said to Brent, what would you say you'd like me to work on? To his credit, this is says a lot about him, not about me. He's I know you're growing. I don't, I think that's fine. And it's what I'm thinking in my head. I have so many things I want him to work on, so I was I know, and that's not, this is all about my sin, not him. And so I said, okay. And so I'm thinking, what does he not pay attention to me? Because I know I have things to work on. But no, he was being gracious. Like he's not sitting around looking at what I could do different.
Jocelyn: He doesn't have a list going.
Janet: And so I said, okay, we talked about something else. And then he's you know what? There is one thing. And I said, okay. And he said, if you just show me more grace, can I tell you what went through my mind? You have no idea how much grace I show you. Because of how many things I don't tell you that I want you to change. And I'm thinking, oh my word, I have a running list. How incredibly judgmental, critical, not grace driven, and Brent could have a list about me, he just doesn't. Not because I don't give him material for a list. This being one of them. But I was so glad he said that because my first thought was, I didn't see it. I was like, I need to work on a lot of things, and I still don't think that's it. It was the one thing. And it was the thing, and later I said to him, honey, I have prayed about that. So that's why I'm like, ask the Lord. So I was like, Lord help me. And it was like, just getting hit with, look at, your husband loves you in all these ways, he's growing in all these ways, and you focus on this. Whatever that was. Praise the Lord, I don't remember what it was. But I think. I was not looking at him through grace. I wanted grace, but I was certainly looking at him through perfection, of how he would affect my life and make it easier if he was perfect. So I think grace is, and being able to pray and study those passages of scripture would be very powerful.
Jocelyn: I'm grateful for this conversation. I'm grateful for the Sermon on the Mount. It's helpful to know that we are to judge scripturally, we're not just supposed to not think about stuff, overlook sin or not care about justice, but we have to do it in the right way with the right standards.
Janet: Yes. Thank you, Rob.
Rob: Thank you.
To keep from missing any future episodes, please sign up for our newsletter on our webpage joyfuljourneypod.com. From there you can also subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, or Spotify. You can also visit us on our Facebook page or Instagram at Joyful Journey Podcast. If you have questions or comments for us, you can email us at joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their website.
