Repentance vs. Penance
Repentance is a word that is used so often in Christian circles, but what is it exactly? This week, Janet and Jocelyn discuss true repentance and how it doesn’t mean we work to pay for our sins as a form of penance, but instead turn from sin and to God.
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Resources
Books
Unpacking Forgiveness - Chris Brauns
Articles
False Repentance Leads to False Conversions - Michael Lawrence
Thoughts on Jesus’s Demand to Repent - John Piper
Unless You Stop Loving Sin: The Heart of Repentance - Stephen Witmer
The Whole in Our Holiness - Ligon Duncan
Podcasts
The Hesed Love of God - Joyful Journey
Video
John Piper and Tim Keller Wrestle with Sanctification
Websites
Vision of Hope Women’s Residential Treatment Facility
Transcript:
Janet: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Alexandra: I just want to make it as totally simple and no-brainer as possible for ladies to see that
the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of
my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to
inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as
women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy. Typically, I’ll be joined by either
Jocelyn or Alexandra, but for our first full episode listen as all three of us discuss the topic of
joy.
Janet: Hello. Welcome back. My name is Janet and I'm here with my co-host Jocelyn, once
again. Say hi, Jocelyn.
Jocelyn: Hey there.
Janet: We're thankful you're joining us as we talk about what can be a confusing topic. What is
the difference between repentance and penance and why does it even matter. This episode is the
result of conversations I've had, where people seem to confuse the concept of penance and
repentance. Jocelyn, how about you? Have you seen that at all?
Jocelyn: Well, only in myself every day. And to know the counselors I work with and moms in
mom to mom, just, you know, it's a big topic. A lot of people aren't really sure what it means to
be repentant. And it feels comfortable to feel like you can just take care of your problems
yourself.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: So, yeah, it's a common issue. I think I see it a lot.
Janet: So I think what I need to do first is let's start out with defining our terms.
Jocelyn: Good idea.
Janet: I just find that if we don't do that, I'll find where we think we're talking about the same
thing and we're just talking past each.
Jocelyn: Yep, absolutely.
Janet: So after that, we'll talk about what is different between the two, the different motivations,
and then really what's the difference between an act of penance and making restitution?
Jocelyn: I think that's going to be very helpful to know about.
Janet: So, as far as repentance, I think a lot of us can give a decent definition and still maybe
more commonly in the minds of women that we're talking to, we're hearing something very
different. And that has, I think, serious implications for our growth. If we don't know how to
repent, which we're supposed to do daily. So I'm going to read just several definitions to give us
some thoughts about how to think more deeply about what is repentance.
Jocelyn: I love definitions.
Janet: You do. You are the definition queen. The Greek English lexicon says this: to change one's
mind. And I would say that's something we hear commonly repent means to turn, to change one's
mind, to feel remorse, to repent, which always cracks me up.
Jocelyn: Repentance means to repent. How helpful.
Janet: And be converted. In an article from the gospel coalition, which we'll link in our show
notes, Michael Lawrence says this: repenting means exchanging-- so we have that change
concept again-- exchanging our idols for God. And I think this is important. Before it's a change
in behavior, it must be a change in worship.
Jocelyn: Yeah. That's deep.
Janet: Repentance means hating what we formerly loved and served, our idols. And turning away
from them.
Jocelyn: I think that hating part, that's pretty big.
Janet: Yes. Yes. It's not just, what do I need to do now?
Jocelyn: What's the next step.
Janet: Oh, I need to turn.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: I need to hate. Stephen Whitmer in another article from Desiring God says this: repenting
means experiencing a change of mind. There we have to change again. That now sees God as
true and beautiful and worthy of all our praise and all our obedience. And we're back to worship
then.
Jocelyn: Yep.
Janet: Exactly what he said in the last one. And another one in the book, Unpacking Forgiveness,
Chris Braun says this: biblically to repent means to change behavior as a result of a complete
change of thinking and attitude.
Jocelyn: I love it that that first definition talks about feeling remorse. Because you can easily just
do something different without feeling bad about it. And what it's saying is like doing the wrong
thing should make you feel bad. And feeling bad is part of the motivation for changing because
you realize it was wrong.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: You're, motivated because you're like, Hey, this isn't right. And I loved that, that other
one said hating what we formerly loved. Because when I think change, I don't think, oh, let's also
change what I love or hate.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: And, you know, all that stuff works together because. You're not going to see a change
of behavior that lasts unless your mind was changed about it. You're going to keep going back to
that same thing.
Janet: Which is why I think it's important. The Greek word, many of us know means to turn.
And that's true, but Jocelyn, I think you're exactly right. If we leave it at the behavior level, then
we can turn and not truly have repented. And not truly have changed what we worship.
Jocelyn: You can just be doing the right things and inside of your head, continuing to think
wrongly about it.
Janet: And as a result, it can easily get confused with penance. So, what is it that we need to
turn? Our behavior, yes, but first our mind, the way we think about our sin, the way we think
about our behavior. And we turn our worship, we turn what we love. So it's a turning of our
heart.
Jocelyn: Exactly.
Janet: That will result in a turning of our behavior.
Jocelyn: Yep.
Janet: So bottom line, repentance is changing my heart. And so we're going to look at the
implications of that later in this podcast, but first, what does that have to do then with penance?
Good question. and I would say penance is really the exact opposite of repentance. And here's
why I say that in penance, we get to exalt, man. I made up for it and now I'm good. Again, I did
this, I paid and now I'm good. I even had somebody tell me that I was talking to about the cross
and about becoming a Christian. And she said, I pay my own way. It was offensive to her that
Christ would pay it for her.
Jocelyn: That's outright. But think about how much we say that inside of our own heads.
Janet: Oh, yeah.
Jocelyn: Like I can take care of this mess. I'll clean it up.
Janet: And then God will be happy with me because I fixed it. Yep. Which is exalting me. And
it's a misunderstanding of the law. And I will explain that here in a minute. But first, what is
penance?
Jocelyn: Good question.
Janet: Another definition from yourdictionary.com. No idea
Jocelyn: It's a reliable source
Janet: Penance is self punishment done to try to write a wrong. Or the receipt of absolution from
sins. From a priest by fulfilling some requirements. I do something. It's an act of self
mortification or devotion performed voluntarily to show sorrow for sin or other wrongdoing.
Jocelyn: It reminds me of people whipping themselves like,
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: I'm so, sorry that I'm going to hurt myself.
Janet: Yes. Voluntary self-imposed punishment for a sinful act or wrongdoing. It may be intended
to serve as reparation for the act. So it's a way to make up for our sins. It's a way to pay for them
ourselves. Which when we get to restitution, restitution is the exact opposite of that. Restitution
is not motivated by I will pay for this.
Jocelyn: I can make it right. Right.
Janet: And so we're going to have to keep looking at what is the motive? What's the purpose
behind the activity? Michael Lawrence, in that same article went on to say this: too often we treat
repentance as a call to clean up our lives. We do good to make up for the bad. We try to even the
scale, or even push it back to the positive side. Sometimes we talk about repentance as if it were
a really serious religious, new year's resolution.
Jocelyn: It's like works-based sanctification all the way right there.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: I can work my way out of this bad thing, this bad state.
Janet: Which I think was fascinating because I believe what he just described is penance. But
interestingly, we frequently call that repentance.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: and it's the opposite. Heather Starkweather's, works at Vision of Hope, the director there,
and she says this: self-harm can be motivated by unresolved guilt, seeking to punish themselves
as a form of penance. They deserve punishment and they see self-harm as a means to rectify the
sin. Which is interesting. Many things can motivate self-harm, but one of them can be it's a form
of penance.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: I did bad. I deserve to be hurt. I will hurt me. It's an unbiblical way of dealing with guilt.
And if there is true guilt, which, which of us does not have true guilt.
Jocelyn: Right. Exactly. That's what I was just thinking.
Janet: How do we address it? Repentance, not penance. I turn from loving that sin enough to do
it, to loving God.
Jocelyn: And what's so interesting is that if you do have the wrong view, penance is this view
that I could possibly pretend like this thing isn't controlling me or isn't true, but repentance is
saying it is true and there is a solution for it.
Janet: Yes. what is the motive behind penance? The motive behind repentance is that I recognize
and hate my sin and turn from it because my heart has been changed by the grace of God. So
what motivates penance then? Well, I think a variety of things can motivate us to want to
perform penance and sometimes it's really just wrong theology, which is one reason we're talking
about it .Sometimes people punish themselves because they really think they're supposed to.
Jocelyn: Right. I think that they believe that this is the right way to deal with stuff. You did
something wrong now fix it.
Janet: Which, because in the world, that's what you're supposed to do.
Jocelyn: Exactly. That's the only hope there is for change.
Janet: Yes. So they believe that's what God expects. Do we understand that's the opposite
message of the gospel? If I can punish myself for my sin. What in the world does that say about
Jesus' death?
Jocelyn: It was totally unnecessary. If you could possibly get your way out of your sin, why did
Jesus have to die?
Janet: Yes. Or maybe he had to die. I will tell you, this is what I used to think. I know I sin. I
know Jesus needed to die for me, but then I have to do something to get over the top.
Jocelyn: Push it over.
Janet: So I'm going to add to what Jesus did. Not thinking all the way through that, because that
would mean, I believe Jesus' death was insufficient.
Jocelyn: That you needed to do something to finish it.
Janet: That I could actually add to it. Right. Yes. So understanding that theology of the cross is
going to be paramount in understanding why pennace is offensive. And the person's right. Their
sins should be punished.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: And there's this part of us that has the sense of justice that says you just shouldn't be able
to get away with things. You deserve to be punished.
Jocelyn: I think that's a valid point to talk about because I mean, that's a part of being made in the
image of God, is that you understand that there's right ways to do things. It's righteousness. And
he has every right to be upset with us when we're not living rightly. But it's just a
misunderstanding of how that's applied and how that's taken care of.
Janet: Yes, because that is exactly, what's so amazing about what Jesus did. Because it's exactly
right that my sin deserves punishment.
Jocelyn: True.
Janet: It's exactly right that because of the standard of righteousness, I fall short. What's wrong is
to think that I could do anything about it. I'm even helpless to do anything about that.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: There's something about penance that gives me control. I can't even do that. I can't do
enough to punish myself. If it were up to me, I would have to die. And then all that would do is
pay for it. It requires my life.
Jocelyn: And I think that's part of the wrong theology. Is if you don't really understand the
theology of sin, then you're going to have misperceptions about it, and misperceptions of what to
do about it. But a really good biblical understanding of sin should help you understand that
penance won't cut it.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: It's not enough. Sin is grievous.
Janet: It's not that you shouldn't have to hurt yourself it's that you can't do enough.
Jocelyn: You cannot possibly pay for it.
Janet: Yes. So we have to understand theologically the cross. And that should bring us in a
humble gratitude that he did what I can't.
Jocelyn: Absolutely.
Janet: But I do think sometimes it's not just, or even at all part of our theology. The root of my
desire for penance really can be my pride.
Jocelyn: I agree.
Janet: And there's a couple of ways I think that. First of all, it is a minimization of the effect of
sin. Now we've said theologically, sometimes we just don't get it. And that's true. We just may be
uninformed. But, for some of us, we want to minimize sin.
Jocelyn: We do know how bad sin is, but we just don't want it to be that bad for us.
Janet: Yes. So it seems humble to say, oh, I deserve punishment and I should do something to
pay for it. And I shouldn't come to God until I've done my part. But it's actually very proud
because it really says I can do something about it.
Jocelyn: That you're able to.
Janet: My sin is not so big that I can't fix it. And it means I don't understand the holiness of God.
I was raised in a fairly religious home and so it really encouraged a kind of penance. I remember
at one point later on, my dad is now gone, but at one point when my dad was a little more open
to talking about things of eternity on the phone, a couple of years before he died, we were talking
something about trying to do the right thing. And I remember him telling me, well, he tried to do
right. I just do the best I can. And I can remember saying to him, well, you know, I believe that,
and here's what God's standard requires. Yes. Perfection. Never sinning, not one time. He's holy,
he's sinless. And if you're going to stand in the presence of God, dad, you're going to have to be
sinless as well.
Jocelyn: Perfectly sinless. Pure. Never having sinned.
Janet: And I remember, I was so grateful that it seemed like he was beginning to understand that
we've had these conversations before, but he got quiet and then he said, then it's hopeless for me.
And I'm thinking that's right.
Jocelyn: That's why we need Jesus.
Janet: I need you to understand that. Or you're going to keep thinking you can pay for it. That's
right. You can't make up for it. But until then he had to minimize sin and minimize its effect, and
then believe highly enough of himself to think that he could pay for it.
Jocelyn: Yeah. It's a combination, minimizing sin and maximizing you, and your ability.
Janet: Yes. And another area of pride, which is aligned with all of that is, we just have this
justification of self, this self righteousness that, permeates us, And it will cause us to believe we
can earn our way to heaven. And in the past I have even said, well, those are legalists. Those are
people who believe they can obey the law and be a believer. They believe that obeying the law
will save. But it was fascinating, I heard Ligon Duncan talk about this and I thought, oh my
word, that's so true. In reality, legalists those who are trying to be saved by the law and their
works, all they're showing is they don't understand the law.
Jocelyn: Yeah. Because the law is absolute.
Janet: Yeah. It's fascinating. He says this, and he's talking about the rich young ruler in Matthew
19, and then, the lawyer in Luke 10. He says this: in this passage, he's talking about Matthew 19,
Jesus exposes the rich young ruler's self-righteousness. He thought he was keeping the
commandments. But in reality, the rich young ruler was failing to love his neighbor by valuing
his personal possessions and wealth more than his neighbors' good. And then he says, as the
following context makes clear, Jesus isn't teaching justification by works when he talks to the
lawyer in Luke 10. He's exposing the self-righteousness of the lawyer. In fact, the lawyer's
response demonstrates just how well Jesus has exposed his heart. As Luke records, the lawyer,
wishing to justify himself said to Jesus, well, who's my neighbor.
Jocelyn: That's fascinating.
Janet: Yeah. So this question reveals a great deal about the lawyer in particular and about
legalists in general, Ligon Duncan goes on to say,-- I love this-- while legalists are fastidious
about keeping the law, they're always looking for loopholes to avoid scripture's intrusion into
their life.
Jocelyn: That is interesting.
Janet: They're not humbly saying I want to do it all.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: In response to the lawyer's evasive and self justifying question, Jesus tells the parable of
the good Samaritan. And I love that.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: To think about the fact that legalists don't get it. Because if you understood the law, it
would crush you. If you want to live by the law, you would be crushed and in despair at all times.
Jocelyn: And you can't do it.
Janet: An accurate understanding of the law leads you to cry for mercy. It doesn't at all lead you
to say, I'll pay for that. Romans three 19 to 20 says it this way. Now we know that whatever the
law says, it speaks to those who are under the law so that every mouth may be closed and all the
world may become accountable to God, because by the works of the law, no flesh will be
justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin. Galatians 2: 21 says this. I
do not nullify the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died
needlessly. And he goes on to say in Galatians 3: 24, therefore the law has become our tutor to
lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. So penance, believing I can pay my way, is
the opposite of repentance that realizes Christ paid it all, and I want to love him more than my
sin, and I turn. And as a result, In penance man gets glorified because look what I did to pay for
it. And in repentance, man is humbled to the point of knowing there is nothing I can do and God
is glorified.
Jocelyn: And I think also a deep love for Jesus is the result of true repentance. And it reminds me
of Luke 7: 47. And it says this, therefore I tell you her sins, which are many are forgiven for, she
loved much, but he who is forgiven little, loves little. I think about that passage all the time.
Cause like, if I truly grasp the seriousness and the depth of my sin, I would recognize there's no
solution for it outside of Jesus. And that's going to cause me to be so grateful, so grateful for his
forgiveness and the possibility of being reunited with God, that I then live in a life that is just
devoted to righteousness, devoted to Jesus. So I'm not just trying to like, you know, follow all the
rules as a Christian. I'm trying to love my savior because I can't believe he was willing to forgive
so many sins.
Janet: Yes. Which is the opposite. The world would say, if you pile on letting people know how
wicked sinful they are, they're going to be in despair.
Jocelyn: They're gonna feel terrible about themselves.
Janet: But the scripture say, no.
Jocelyn: Pile it on. It makes you adjust so devoted to Jesus.
Janet: It gives me more to be grateful for. And it exposes the part of my heart that is still a
legalist because it gets crushed. I'm in despair. I can't do it. Are you kidding me? It's that bad? I
can remember when I recognized I can't even make me repent well. Like I can't even do that.
Jocelyn: Even that is from the Lord.
Janet: Yes. Like I want to love God. I can't even do that. Like, oh my word. It's not just a matter
of don't say it.
Jocelyn: I'm ruined.
Janet: Don't think it. Don't want it. Are you kidding me? How do I do that? Jesus help me. Oh,
my word. You covered that too.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Amazing. So penance and repentance. Exact opposite. But many times we get them
confused in our head.
Jocelyn: And so I'm wondering like, okay, sometimes when you sin, there are consequences.
How do you handle that? Because it's not like you can penance your way out of consequences.
And also you can't repent your way out of consequences. Like consequences are the result of
stuff that happened. So what do you do about all that?
Janet: Yep. So where do restitution and consequences fit? And I think, especially if we've said,
okay, penance and repentance, I see they're not the same, but if I need to make restitution, isn't
that penance?
Jocelyn: Right. It's so tricky.
Janet: Yeah. And if penance is unbiblical, then how is restitution biblical? And here's the first
thing I'll say, again, motives are important.
Jocelyn: Yeah. What's going on inside of your heart.
Janet: Yeah. So what is restitution? Let's define that too. Google, my good friend says this:
restitution means the restoration of something stolen or lost back to the proper. It can also be
defined as the recompense for injury or loss by the person responsible for the injury or loss.
Jocelyn: And you can see examples of that all throughout the old Testament. Like if you're
borrowing your neighbor's donkey and he gets killed, how many donkeys do you give him back?
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: You know, all sorts of law that helps people know how to make things right with people.
Janet: Yes. Chris Bronze again in Unpacking Forgiveness says discipline is the loving correction
of a parent. Penalty is the price required for the offense. If you're a believer, the purpose of God's
discipline is not to inflict upon you the punishment you deserve. Because if that were the case,
God would send you to hell.
Jocelyn: That fact had a ton of implication for me and my parenting because when my kids do
wrong, I cannot possibly punish them enough for it.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: But I can discipline them. I can help them to understand the right way of thinking about
it and then learning to live that right way. But we cannot possibly pay the punishment.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: That we need to pay for. It was the punishment of sin is death.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: Every time. For every sin.
Janet: And if we understand that, then we realize, okay, there, there is no punishment. There is no
penance. But there are still consequences. he goes on to say, consequences are important for the
sake of justice. Oh, and this is interesting. A willingness to accept consequences for sinful
behavior is actually good evidence that the offender truly is repentant.
Jocelyn: And is humble enough to accept the consequences.
Janet: Yes. Whatever. It's not that I'm paying for it. I know that I can't pay for my sin, but I'm
happy to do any consequence that came as a result of my sin. So how do you understand the
difference? Because penance can look like restitution.
Jocelyn: Yeah. That's a good question.
Janet: Penance can look like the fruits of repentance. And penance and seems to make sense. I
did something wrong and now I do something, right. So I would say the behaviors really, really
can be similar and the motives could not be more opposite.
Jocelyn: Yeah. True.
Janet: So let me give a situation, let's think through what would penance look like? What would
repentance look like?
Jocelyn: This is going to be helpful? Okay. I'm ready for it.
Janet: Okay. So let's imagine I stole money from my family to support my drug habit. And I'm
caught and I feel remorse.
Jocelyn: I have had several counseling situations that were this exact situation.
Janet: Yes. So now what's going to happen?
Jocelyn: Yep.
Janet: I'm going to do penance. I feel so guilty. I'm going to pay the money back with interest and
then they don't have anything over me anymore. We're even. I will feel better about myself since
we're even, and I'm not obligated anymore. I don't owe my family anything now. I don't owe God
anything now. I paid for it. I paid it all back. Nobody can ever bring it up to me again. I took care
of it.
Jocelyn: Okay. So that's penance
Janet: That's penance. Here's repentance. My sin goes way beyond the money I stole. I have a
depraved heart that wants to worship feeling good over worshiping God.
Jocelyn: That's hard.
Janet: I took, I took advantage of the trust and love of my family and used them to meet my
desires. I was the center of my worship. God requires complete sinlessness to be in his presence.
So all of my sinful heart desires must be paid for before I can be in his presence. And I cannot
make up for the pain I've caused my family.
Jocelyn: That's big.
Janet: Thinking about that. If you're the family member, and my daughter has stolen from me and
then says I took 20, but I'm returning 30. We're good now. Right? As if that made up for the pain
of the betrayal.
Jocelyn: That's what I was just thinking. Like, how can you put a monetary figure on emotional
manipulation, or the trauma that comes with the life of a drug addict? Like those things are
incalculable they're beyond financial contribution.
Janet: So penance requires me to minimize my sin again. To make it manageable. And when I
actually see my sin, all I can do is repent, and say, I cannot make it up to you.
Jocelyn: That's all that's left. There's no other option.
Janet: Yes. So then what would biblical restitution look like? Well, the first thing is 1 John 1:9. I
confess, which means I agree with God. I agree with God, the repentance that I just talked about,
I have a depraved heart. I agree with God about all that. I don't justify it. I don't minimize it. I
just agree with God.
Jocelyn: And I think that starts out with an understanding that there is a right way to function and
it is whatever God has said about that thing. And when you're confessing, all you're doing is
saying, oh, I see that there is a right way. It's what you said. And I did not do it that way.
Janet: Yes, I was wrong. I am worshiping something other than the God of the universe. I am
wrong. Then I can praise God for Jesus, but I cannot do.
Jocelyn: I mean, how could you with a true knowledge of the depth of your sin and seeing that
Jesus' death was possible for the payment of your sin? How could there be any response but
that? Overwhelming, overflowing love and gratitude for Jesus who was willing to fix this
gigantic mess.
Janet: Yes. He says in Hebrews 4:16, therefore let us approach the throne of grace with boldness.
Which anytime I read that, I think back to the old Testament where they approached the throne in
the temple with trepidation for sure.
Jocelyn: Fear. They didn't want to die.
Janet: Once a year the high priest could go in on pain of death and only if he sacrificed an animal
for his own sin, first
Jocelyn: And only if he had a rope around his leg and jingle bells on the bottom of his dress. So
if they heard him stop jingling, they could pull him out.
Janet: Because nobody's going in there. Yes. And now boldly run so that we can receive mercy
and find grace to help in a time of need. That's what Jesus did. That's amazing. Ephesians 2: 4 to
5 says it this way, because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with
Christ. Even when we were dead. Talk about not being able to do anything to make up for it. I
was dead.
Jocelyn: Dead. That's kind of what I was thinking about as you were talking earlier. it's not like I
was like, not kind enough, not gentle enough, or not generous enough. Like I was dead in my
sins. And the only solution for deadness is to be made alive.
Janet: And you have no part of it when you're dead.
Jocelyn: I have no part of that. Right. I need someone outside of myself to alive me. To bring me
to life.
Janet: And you don't add to it. You know. So it's by grace. So I will praise God. And that will
lead to gratitude. So first, when I recognize my sin, what does repentance look like? You're,
right, God. I am completely wrong. That's the ugliness of my heart. Thank you that Jesus did
what I cannot do, which is he lived a life fully worshiping his father all the time and then said,
give that to Janet. Then it leads me to incredible gratitude. As you've been saying Jocelyn. Now I
want to walk worthy of the one who did that for me. Now I get to Ephesians 4:1 after Ephesians
one to three tells me all the amazing things God has done. I get to Ephesians 4:1 now live a life
worthy of that calling. And I want to.
Jocelyn: That's so beautiful. Yeah.
Janet: And I want to. And part of that gratitude is I get the joyful ability to make restitution as a
fruit, an evidence of the repentance that has already taken place. And you see that in Luke 19
with the story of Zacchaeus.
Jocelyn: Yeah. I love that part.
Janet: And we know the story that Zacchaeus was a tax collector and he stole from people. But
after he met Jesus, he says, Jesus does not ask this of him. He says, look, Lord, here and now I
give half my possessions to the poor. If I've cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back
four times the amount. And because he had repented and come to Jesus, that was his heart's
response. And that fruit led Jesus to say today, salvation has come to this house.
Jocelyn: And so an evidence of salvation is that you're not stingy with how you handle the
consequences of your sin. You're generous. Salvation results in generosity. Generosity, and
making things right with what your behavior cost that person. And it's beyond the monetary
value. We know that. It's not possible to, calculate that. But it, I think that's one of the ways to
think about is this behavior in my head, is this penance or repentance? Is it stingy or is it
generous?
Janet: I think it's an excellent point because Jesus did not say, okay, restitution means give away
half your money and give back four times the amount. That is not a restitution law.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: That was a heart that said, I want to do more than
Jocelyn: the requirement
Janet: maybe I need to. Because I'm so grateful for what you've done for me. And I, I'm sure he
did hurt doing what, how he had taken advantage of people. I just want to bless them now.
Jocelyn: I am the grateful recipient of generosity, and I need to let that generosity flow out of my
life, into the lives of the people that I've wronged.
Janet: Yes. So Jesus, didn't tell Zacchaeus he needed to do it. But it was a beautiful evidence to
those watching that Jesus had transformed Zacchaeus. And it wasn't Zacchaeus saying I'll make
things right with God. I'll give you your money back. And now we're all good. Do you see the
heart is the opposite of that?
Jocelyn: Right. Penance is like I will meet the bare minimum and then we're cool.
Janet: Yep.
Jocelyn: And repentance is like overflowingly
Janet: I'll never even meet it. I just want to give you all I can.
Jocelyn: I want to bless you out of the gratefulness of my heart.
Janet: So when we repent, we're saying, I'm turning from representing my own value to
representing gods and Zacchaeus was representing the values of God by being generous.
Jocelyn: And what's super encouraging about the Zacchaeus story is that that change was
instantaneous. So it's not something necessarily that will always be an instantaneous change. We
might have to work hard on it, but it is possible that when God puts a new life into your heart,
you can see changes that are significant right away.
Janet: And in that God was exalted, not Zacchaeus.
Jocelyn: Exactly.
Janet: Because Zacchaeus it wasn't like, here's what I'll do to make you happy. He didn't say,
Jocelyn: Look at me.
Janet: Look at me. It was all that you've done for me, this is the least I could do.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: And so how important is that? Oh, I think it's very, very important to understand the
difference. What's the danger of not getting this right? What's the danger of thinking, well,
whatever in the end, you still give the money back? What's the danger of that? And I would say, I
think it's really possible to have false converts.
Jocelyn: Yeah, I agree. And especially if you look at how Jesus connected in Luke 19, he said, so
this generosity from Zacchaeus and, and restitution for the people he had stolen from, it's like
connected to salvation. This is an evidence that salvation actually came to this house today. And
so if you get this wrong, it's very connected to your understanding of the true cost of your sin.
Janet: Yes, it is possible for someone to think they've moved from the kingdom of self to the
kingdom of God when they haven't. And I think we need to be sobered by that.
Jocelyn: That's actually kind of scary.
Janet: Yeah. Michael Lawrence in the article I mentioned earlier, it goes on to say calling people
to make a decision without calling them to repent. And I would say understanding biblical
repentance,
Jocelyn: What that means, yeah.
Janet: not only risks creating a false convert-- think about this-- it risks, vaccinating a person
against the real gospel.
Jocelyn: That's kind of scary, isn't it?
Janet: They think they already have Christianity. And then we double down and say, once saved,
always saved. You prayed a prayer when you were three, you never have to worry about it again.
Wow. Think about that. When we tell people to make up for their sin, or when we say things like
you need to ask Jesus in your heart and then go to church and tithe and serve, we could be giving
them false hope when they haven't repented at a heart level.
Jocelyn: And I think sometimes people are afraid of being that real about the cost of sin. And so
a quick ask Jesus into your heart. It's like, oh good, they're in heaven now.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: Because we're not confident that Jesus' answers will actually be adequate for how
crushing the realization is that we have really sinned. And I think as your confidence in
understanding the gospel grows, you'll be less afraid to go to real places with people.
Janet: Yes. And I think also, because at some level we all know how wicked we are. We just
don't want to deal with it.
Jocelyn: We don't want to let it be real.
Janet: So, for somebody else to come up to me and say, actually, I know that too, about you, that
you're that wicked. And there's hope.
Jocelyn: There's a solution.
Janet: There's a solution, but we don't need to minimize sin. And I think in an effort to get them
to pray, we may do that. And to think, we may be encouraging penance. I've made up for it, God.
I go to church. I give 10% of my money. I serve in three different ways. I've made up for it. Now,
I can feel good about me.
Jocelyn: I was involved in a situation with someone that I loved that was just, devastated about
the possibility that they were actually as bad as they thought they were. And the effort was just
do a bunch of good things. Keep everything good. Keep everything smooth. And when we could
just come to this place where we acknowledged, well, you actually are as wicked as you believe
that you might be. Instead of it just dissolving that person into like overwhelming fear that took
them over. And then I followed up with the solution and that's why Jesus needed to come. He
offered a solution to you being ruined by sin. It was like the opposite of desolation. It was so
hopeful.
Janet: There's relief.
Jocelyn: There's relief right there. Like you don't have to worry that you're actually that bad. You
are that bad. And look the solution it's available to you.
Janet: I heard Tim Keller once talk about what it means to truly understand grace. The
recognition that I can't make up for anything, no amount of penance is gonna even the score. And
he talked about-- I'll probably butcher it, but this illustration was just so interesting to me. He
talked about meeting with an unbeliever.
Jocelyn: Okay.
Janet: She was asking a lot of questions about Christianity and she was trying to come to grips
with what is this whole saved by grace alone thing means, so he was explaining what grace really
is. And she made the connection, which I think was very rational and right. If she could be saved
by works, then there's a limit to what God can ask of her. I pay for it. Okay. I need to do a certain
amount of things and then I have appeased God. And now I'm done with appeasing
Jocelyn: You're done. Yeah.
Janet: But if it's grace, there's no limit to what he could ask of her. She's never not obligated.
Jocelyn: Which totally mirrors First Peter. Like he bought you. He bought you with his blood.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: You belong to him.
Janet: Now obedience becomes unconditional. She owes him everything. And to think, okay.
When I understand that, penance is ridiculous. Penance doesn't even make sense. And then Tim
Keller went on to say, every step you take in Jesus. You go deeper in debt because even that step
you took, he gave you the grace to take it. So any step I take of growth is taken by the grace of
God. So now I owe him even more. I'm a debtor to grace. And when I understand that I will be in
despair at the idea of penance because my debt keeps growing. I owe him more and more every
day because he's given me the grace every day.
Jocelyn: More and more every day.
Janet: Which is amazing.
Jocelyn: So false converts.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: One of the results of not getting this right. What else?
Janet: I think it can lead to a really wrong view of forgiveness. Because doing penance means
that the one who sinned is the one who pays that makes sense.
Jocelyn: Yeah. I mean, they did wrong.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: Make it right.
Janet: But if you think about the concept of biblical forgiveness, I love this quote from Chris
Bronze. In biblical forgiveness, the forgiving person pays the price of forgiveness.
Jocelyn: Yeah. Because it's expensive to be sinned against.
Janet: Yes. And you choose to absorb it. Forgiveness is a commitment by the offended, to pardon
graciously the repentant for moral liability and to be reconciled to that person. And then he says,
although not all consequences are necessarily eliminated.
Jocelyn: Clearly.
Janet: If somebody goes to jail, they go to jail. All those things. But the moral liability, I absorb
it.
Jocelyn: I choose to not hold it against that person.
Janet: Right. So they don't pay, the offender gets off and the offended pays.
Jocelyn: With a wrong view of repentance and penance, the forgiveness is like too cheap. You
don't acknowledge the true price, the true cost that that sin had on you. It's just like, oh, it was
nothing. It's not nothing. It's big.
Janet: Yes. Forgiveness is not free. Chris Bron said Christ suffered in our place. And I think to
remember the whole point of saving faith is knowing we've been forgiven. We didn't pay. We
sinned. Christ paid. That's what forgiveness is.
Jocelyn: God said he's not viewing our sin against us. Jesus' death covered our sin.
Janet: Yes. So we're not going to understand forgiveness between us and God. We're not going to
understand forgiveness between people. If we're living in the construct of penance.
Jocelyn: And think about all the weird relationships like with other humans that fall out of a
wrong view forgiveness. It's like, you have to avoid them for the rest of your life because you
know, you owe them still. Even if I forgive you, like. Biblical forgiveness says, I recognize the
heavy weight of your sin and I choose to not hold you accountable for it. And then reconciliation
is like a joyful experience where your relationship actually gets bigger and deeper and more
wonderful and more full of love because you're like, so beholden to that person for not holding
your sin against you.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: It's like, it's kind of like how you love Jesus more. When you can have an opportunity to
be forgiven in a human relationship. It deepens that relationship when you have the right view of
forgiveness.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: So any other ways that bad results can happen if you don't understand repentance or
penance?
Janet: I think the other thing that I would just mention is I think it can blind us to our own need
to repent. If I think I've paid for it,
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: then I'm not going to deal with my heart. And I had a dear friend say recently, a situation
came up where she works and she was not happy with something someone said to her. And she
said, typically what I would do is go, I will say what I'm supposed to say. I will do what I'm
supposed to do and I will move on. And so I've done it. But when you understand that's not
repentance, she said, I later went home and went okay, but what's going on in my heart. And I
won't deal with my heart and my sin is still going to be there. And I'm deceived. So doing
penance will distract me from dealing at a heart level with repentance.
Jocelyn: Wow. So what can we do to grow in doing this the right way? How can we become
more biblically repentant?
Janet: Well, and it's definitely a process and even that is a grace, right? I can't even do that.
Jocelyn: You can't even do the process with Jesus' help.
Janet: But I love Tim Keller talked about repentance beginning with removing the idols in our
hearts. Because we've already said it's not first to behavior. So I'm going to have to work at how
do I remove the idols in my heart so that I can repent. So that I'll stop loving and worshiping
something else. And I'll actually turn in my heart to God.
Jocelyn: So how do you do that? How do you get rid of idols?
Janet: I loved his first comment. It was be ruthless. Which really hits what we said earlier about
minimizing. Don't minimize. He said, realize they completely dominate you when you don't
know they're there. So,
Jocelyn: That's true. You're blind to them.
Janet: Yes. So first you have to be aware they're there. Bring them into the light. No minimizing,
no rationalizing be ruthless with yourself. No, but at least I'm better than I was. I'm not as bad as
I could be. No, be ruthless and then run to the cross.
Jocelyn: Which is like, you know, penance is the opposite of that. It's not that bad. I can make up
for it. Not a big deal.
Janet: So if I find in my head that I'm saying those kinds of phrases, I'm probably on the penance
track. Yes. And then I need to be thinking when Tim said it this way, I thought, wow. When he
said, think about what has this sin done to God? Not how does it make me feel bad, because I
can't feel so good about me. Not how did it maybe hurt someone else or not, because I didn't say
it out loud. It put Jesus on the cross.
Jocelyn: And it's like, when you're not thinking about what it's done to God, you're placing
yourself in that judge position. Oh, I get to define good and evil. I get to call the shots. I get to
say what's helpful or not helpful.
Janet: Yup. But when I am thinking about what it did to God, it should be clear that I cannot
make up for it. And it should bring me to my knees grateful for his love and mercy. His hesed
love that if you missed that episode, go back and listen to that to be amazed by his love. It is his
unfailing love for us.
Jocelyn: So, we're working on growing and biblical repentance. The first thing is remove those
idols, be ruthless in exposing them and getting them out. And then what next?
Janet: Then we've got to start recognizing the fruit.
Jocelyn: Okay.
Janet: So remember our definition of repentance, I should be able to, after I've dealt with my
heart, I should be able to recognize some fruit. Before it's a change in behavior, it's a change in
worship.
Jocelyn: Absolutely.
Janet: But it will result in a change in behavior as well.
Jocelyn: Because when your mind has changed about something, your heart has changed, the
behavior is going to follow that. Kind of like Ephesians 4:22 through 24 says the key to that
lasting change is that your mind was changed about it. And then the behavior flowed out of it.
Janet: Right. And so, you know, you can, at some point it becomes semantic is a change in your
heart the fruit, or is it the repentance? Let's just for lack of a better way to say it. The first fruit of
repentance is that your heart changes.
Jocelyn: That's a good way to say it.
Janet: So the first fruit is going to be, my heart is changing. I'm agreeing with God. I'm not
saying I know you said I shouldn't do it. I know I shouldn't have, and I did it anyway.
Jocelyn: But I was tired. He was mean.
Janet: Yes. And I've even had people say to me, I know it's wrong, but I don't hate it.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: It's agreeing with God. It's admitting. Not only that he's more powerful, but that he's right.
So I'm already turning in my thinking and I have to ask God to help me do that.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: If I've truly confessed, then it's going to mean I truly believe I'm wrong. I'm not just saying
it. I know God I'm supposed to say this. If I truly confess, logically, it means I actually believe
I'm wrong. Well, if you think you're wrong, you stopped doing something.
Jocelyn: And if you, like, want true confession, then you can't just do the act of apologizing. You
actually have to believe that what you did was wrong.
Janet: Yes. So, both happen. It doesn't make sense to say I repented, but I didn't change. Well,
who keeps doing something they've just admitted. They know is wrong.
Jocelyn: If you keep on doing it, then you haven't really repented your mind hasn't actually
flipped. It hasn't gone to a new belief.
Janet: So now you've said the words as an act of penance. But you haven't repented.
Jocelyn: Exactly. I was just thinking that like you could actually confess in a penitential way. I
don't know the right word for that. In a penance kind of way. Your confessions could be kind of
pendency.
Janet: Because I've read the Bible. I know I'm supposed to say that now.
Jocelyn: So I say my words.
Janet: Yes. But we see some biblical examples that I think are beautiful all through Psalm 51.
You see David owning his sin. Great example of what does real confession to God look like. He
owns it. He calls on God's mercy to forgive him. And then you see that repentant heart resulting
in a repentant behavior because he says, all I want to do now is teach others about your character.
But let's contrast that with someone else who said the right words?
Jocelyn: That's helpful. It's helpful for me to see like, okay, here's the wrong way to do it as
opposed to the right way to do.
Janet: So in first Samuel 15, I'm not going to read the whole passage right now, but in first
Samuel 15:10 to 31. Saul does sin against God and the prophet Samuel is calling him out on it.
He initially says, oh no, actually it wasn't me. I kind of did what he told me. So after we get
through all the justifying, here's what he finally says, which sounds like, okay, finally, he gets it.
It says this in verses 24 and 25, Saul answered Samuel "I have sinned. I have transgressed the
Lord's command and your words because I was afraid of the people, I obeyed them. Now,
therefore, please forgive my sin and return with me so that I can worship the Lord." That sounds
pretty good.
Jocelyn: I mean, it sounds right.
Janet: He owned it and we see 10 verses later. Even to the day of his death, Samuel never saw
Saul again, Samuel mourned for Saul and the Lord regretted he had made Saul king over Israel.
So clearly. Saul had not repented. And if you look at his behavior following this, it's evident, he
had never repented.
Jocelyn: He was saying the right words, but his heart was the same.
Janet: Exactly. So his behavior betrayed his motives.
Jocelyn: Which is helpful for us to see if we keep on doing the wrong thing, maybe it's because
our heart hasn't changed about it. So it's kind of like an indicator on the dashboard.
Janet: Yes. Ok, Lord.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Help me with,
Jocelyn: I'm seeing it again.
Janet: I, and there is a particular area in my life right now, just this last week. It was like, you
know, Lord, I have confessed this to you. Help me hate it. Help me hate it because if I don't hate
it, I'm still worshiping it. And I need his help to hate it. Before the statement of confession, he
blamed others and he rationalized. After that statement, he then prioritized how he looked before
the elders. Help me look good. And God is not fooled and we shouldn't be fooled either. It is
fitting to expect fruits of repentance to follow a heart of repentance. In Isaiah 58, you see all the
outward fruits of repentance. It says they came daily to the temple. They're listening to teaching
and they appeared delighted in it. They're praying for help and they're fasting. And the second
half of Isaiah 58, God tells them your fruit is disgusting. You're doing all of these things, but
you're still taking advantage of the poor.
Jocelyn: You're missing the whole point.
Janet: Yeah. So your behavior is betraying what you're saying. So it will start with the heart, but
it will result in a change of behavior. When I'm talking about this with others, I frequently, which
I know only Jocelyn can see right now. I will draw a curve line, like a pendulum, like a clock that
would go back and forth on a pendulum. And I will say this is our tendency. Self-righteousness.
Self pity. Opposite ends of the pendulum. I either think I am better than that. I don't do those
things. Or I go way over here to the other side and goes there. I can't believe I did that. I can't
believe I did that bad. And to realize sometimes we think the goal is to stop going from side to
side and get right there in the middle. I want to get right there in the middle and be balanced, but
realizing self-righteousness self pity. It's all about self.
Jocelyn: So I want to be balanced in my selfishness.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah. So how about get off the pendulum? That's what the gospel does. Because
self-righteousness says I'm better than that. I'm a good Christian. I'm entitled. I tithe. Basically,
I'm a Pharisee and then I move over and then what happens is I fail and then I move over into
self-pity.
Jocelyn: Oh I'm miserable. I can't believe it.
Janet: And say. Yes. I don't deserve to even be forgiven. I need to make up for it before God,
because I knew better. Oh, my word I'm so bad. I can't believe I did that.
Jocelyn: But that's not adequate. Neither of those are adequate.
Janet: No. And I love, my husband has said, when we say things like, I can't believe I did that.
He has said if you're thinking theologically, Janet, why would you ever be surprised that you sin?
You should be surprised anytime you don't sin. It's an evidence of the grace of God.
Jocelyn: That has so helpful for me, because I struggle with pride. Pride like everyone. I tend to
think all the time, I can not believe I did that. What is wrong with me? Why do I keep doing
these horrible things? Instead, seeing like, it is a miracle that I ever do anything appropriatly.
Janet: Yes. Yes. So if I'm thinking of myself accurately, I'm going to end up in a really bad place.
High self-esteem, low self-esteem are both about how can I esteem myself.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: And the gospel says, get to the end of yourself. I need to repent of esteeming myself at all
and my pride balks at that. And then the way I like to say it is then he takes me kicking and
screaming to a better place. When I'm like, no, I can't give it up. I can't give it up then. Oh,
Jocelyn: this was way better.
Janet: Yeah. Only Christ's righteousness. Not mine. This is great. in the show notes. I have that
article by Michael Lawrence that talks about just what are some indicators that you can read, for
false and true convert. But what I want to just mention, what are some indicators of what it might
sound like to be on the self-righteous/self-pity/penance pendulum, cause both of those are
penance.
Jocelyn: How about if you just read my mind on the self-pity side, because I have lived there! I
can't believe I did that.
Janet: And I love this quote that someone said to me, if you're disappointed in yourself, it means
you hoped in yourself.
Jocelyn: Oh, that hurts.
Janet: Isn't that something! It's like, oh. It seemed so humbled to be disappointed in myself, but it
means my hope was in myself.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: So if I'm saying that I'm on the penance side of self-pity.
Jocelyn: Okay.
Janet: Oh, that's just not like me. I think that's so funny. I can still remember years ago I was
working in somewhere else and this woman I met. I had just met her and I can't tell you how
many times she kept saying, I know you don't really know me, but this just doesn't even like me.
This just isn't even like me. This just isn't even like me. And I kept wanting to say.
Jocelyn: Apparently it is because you keep saying it.
Janet: I kept wanting to say, maybe it just is like you, because you keep doing this and then
telling me it's not like you. But, I think that's just, it was just so cute and maybe it really wasn't
like her. I don't know. But that's what we say. If we're in self-pity. Oh, that's just not like me. I'm
better than this.
Jocelyn: And for me, especially the next one, despair, when I'm faced with my sin, that has been
such a companion in my life has just despair. Like, oh my word, it's never going to get better. I
can't believe it's still not fixed.
Janet: Why do I even try?
Jocelyn: Yeah. Why do I put any effort into.
Janet: I don't deserve to be forgiven. I'm so bad. Oh, and here's the thing. Truth
Jocelyn: Yeah, you are. Yeah. I think the solution to that is be like, yeah, that's why you needed
Jesus.
Janet: Right. But the self-pity is I want to deserve it, which is why it makes me sad instead of
grateful. I'll make up for that. If I'm find myself saying before I go to God, I want him to see that
I've tried to fix it.
Jocelyn: It's right for him to forgive me because I've tried to do things correctly.
Janet: And a focus on how my failure reflects on who I am and how I think of me. I don't want to
think of me that way. I don't like to think that I could do that. All of that would say I'm on the
self-pity side. The self-righteousness side. I start saying things like, well, at least I don't do what
Jocelyn did.
Jocelyn: I know. She's a loser!
Janet: Or I start listing all the ways. I'm a good Christian,
Jocelyn: Oh like, right, justifying yourself to yourself.
Janet: Yes. All the ways I deserve whatever it is I'm desiring, because I've earned it.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Maybe God isn't fair, cause I'm not getting those things.
Jocelyn: If he was fair, this would have never happened.
Janet: Yes. Or if I'm on the self-righteousness side, it's kind of hard to see my sin because I'm
really focusing on yours right now.
Jocelyn: It makes you kind of blind.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: The whole log/speck thing.
Janet: So what I think typically happens is we swing. So let's imagine I do a sin, which that's not
hard to imagine. Right. I sin. So if I'm on that pendulum, I start at self pity.
Jocelyn: Yep.
Janet: I can not believe I did. I feel so guilty, you know what? I need to work hard to make up for
it. So then I started moving up little by little. Okay. Now I'm going to do my penance. I'm going
to make up for it. You know what? I'm going to give more money. I'm going to serve more and
actually I've done that enough. And people are going, look how generous she is. I'm actually
feeling better about me and now my self esteem is getting higher and I'm thinking, why aren't
you guys living as good as I am? And now suddenly over time I have made it all the way to the
other side, but I never got off.
Jocelyn: Right. It's still all about you.
Janet: Yes. So penance behaviors quick to acknowledge I could do better. And then I focus on
doing better. I want to work hard to make up for my sin. I want to give time, money and talent so
that I'll feel better. I'm obeying, but there's not a lot of love and joy. These would be red flags.
My prayer is focused on sharing with God, how hard I'm trying. Instead of how much I adore
Jesus.
Jocelyn: Right, because God is obviously oblivious.
Janet: Right, so my penance behaviors require me to think about myself, but sometimes they will
look good. And I prefer penance to repentance because then I can be done.
Jocelyn: Yeah, you can be finished and then you can go rest.
Janet: Cause you would think, why would anyone settle for penance when repentance is
available to them?
Jocelyn: Because then they can be done.
Janet: Yeah, I, then I owe it all and I want it to be manageable. So even in our friendships, part of
what we're going to need to do in our own hearts, and as we help each other expose that wrong
view, but let's not ever do that without extolling the superiority of the gospel.
Jocelyn: Right, 'cause you can't just hammer having a wrong view of penance without replacing
it with something better. And true repentance is better because you see the beauty of the gospel.
The gospel is refreshing water to a thirsty soul. Like we're in a desert, we're dying, we're dead.
And here's the fountain of living water available to us. I mean, it's so much better, so much more
beautiful.
Janet: And when I think about even my own soul, knowing all of that, if somebody fought God
as much as I do, I'd let him go. You what you want penance instead of repentance go.
Jocelyn: Fine, do it.
Janet: And yet, God's arms are open and I love that and I hope that that will be an encouragement
to our listeners today.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Thanks for joining us while we talked through that important subject and I hope you'll be
able to come with us for our next episode.
To keep from missing any future episodes, please sign up for our newsletter on our webpage
joyfuljourneypod.com. From there you can also subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, or
Spotify. You can also visit us on our Facebook page or Instagram at Joyful Journey Podcast. If
you have questions or comments for us, you can email us at
joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible
Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to
receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money
for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their
website.
