Live Q&A BCTC 2025
Our hosts, Janet & Jocelyn, had the opportunity again this year to record a special live episode at our church’s Biblical Counseling Training Conference in Lafayette, Indiana. Janet and Jocelyn answer audience questions submitted online. We enjoyed meeting many of our listeners and we hope this can be a blessing to those who weren’t able to attend live. For more information about the Biblical Counseling Training Conference, follow this link: faithlafayette.org/BCTC.
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Emails us with questions or comments at joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com
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Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Resources
Episode Transcript
Books
Questions Children Ask About Grief and Death - Wally Stephenson
Grief and Your Child - Bob Kellemen
The Moon Is Always Round - Jonathan Gibson
God’s Healing for Life’s Losses - Bob Kellemen
God's Design for Sex series by Carolyn Nystrom
The Story of Me – ages 3-5
Before I Was Born – ages 5-8
What’s the Big Deal – ages 8-11
Website
Handout
2025 Scripture Reading Challenge
Transcript:
Jocelyn: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Janet: I just want to make it as totally simple as possible for ladies to see that the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy.
Janet: Well welcome. Glad you guys are here. I'm kind of, I was thinking about would I come to something like this on a Thursday night when I'm exhausted from the whole week? So,
Jocelyn: it's impressive.
Janet: Kudos to you. Yes, because I'm thinking, I don't know, I'd wait till it came out on the podcast. so we got a variety of questions. I'm not convinced we're going to get through all of them. We're going to really try to stick to the hour that we advertised for your sake and all of ours. So I'm going to start, but if we don't get to yours, it's not personal. Of course, how can it be? I don't know who you are, but,
Jocelyn: talk to us later.
Janet: Yeah. so, I think most of you know us, but if you don't, I'm Janet.
Jocelyn: Jocelyn, hey friends.
Janet: Yes. As you always say.
Jocelyn: We should probably pray.
Janet: You think?
Jocelyn: Yeah, let's do it.
Janet: And Jocelyn's gonna pray for us.
Jocelyn: Okay, let's pray. Dear Heavenly Father, we love you so much. And we're so grateful for the way that you love us and you pursued us. And you are seeking us out now to love you even more. So God, please be with Janet and I as we answer these questions. Help us to Tightly tethered to the truth, and sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit, and we pray that this will bless the people who hear it when it comes out on you. In Jesus name, Amen.
Janet: Amen. okay, so, the majority of these questions you would not need to be going into being a counselor to benefit from them. But this very first one is actually about that, so, Let me read the question. I am not ACBC certified yet, but have taken steps that direction. However, the process of counseling others is terrifying. Can anybody else relate to that? Yes. When I struggle even knowing the depths of my own heart. I hear ya. Much less helping someone else wrestle with their own heart motives. Is there any resource you utilized or anything you did that you found particularly helpful when counseling others or any tips you can provide? Especially for someone who has not yet had their first counselee. And then, how did we transition from training to real life? I do have to say I don't remember, but, The thought of taking the training and attempting it on my own is rather overwhelming. So, first of all, you are not alone. Welcome to the rest of us. I do think the best preparation is continuing to learn your own heart, and that's obviously a priority to you, because that's what you're saying. So I love that, because it's you growing, experiencing God's grace and help, how much better he is, that's what you're compassionately sharing with others, not, oh, here's the techniques. so that's actually really good. what I would encourage you is certainly training and all of that. realize if you're discipling someone, it's the same thing. Don't, I think when we have it in our head, well I can disciple someone, but I don't know that I can counsel them. And I understand sometimes what we mean is, if they had a deeper issue. But if you're discipling, you're doing it. So when you say, I've never done it, you probably have. You probably have. It just might be, Not every topic. If there is someone in your area that could mentor you, that is great. sit in and watch someone else. That's really, really helpful. maybe if you know someone else that's doing counseling, if you have the opportunity, ask if you can be a mentor or an advocate where you sit in on the counseling and then you're helping.
Jocelyn: It's very organic that way.
Janet: Yeah. You're picking it up. Yes. So then you're picking it up just as you go. and I think one of the benefits of that is afterward, you can ask the counselor, why did you do that?
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Why did you go there? because as a new counselor, I think one of the things that's intimidating is when you watch someone, here's what I always thought, oh my word, I totally wouldn't have thought of that. So I would have done it wrong. No. You just might have done something different. You know, so what you can learn is why did you start there? why was that the, cause you could go down every bunny trail, and that's not helpful either. So why did you start there? what do you think are the bigger, but within that, there's so many things you can do. So, that can be helpful. If you have not heard, if Amy was here, I'd just have her say it, but if you have not heard Amy's five priorities in counseling, that's, I find that to be a format that helps me structure my thinking. So, here's Amy's five things. First, is hear their story, enter into their world, their pain, their suffering. that may take a while. Amy didn't say this, but I listened to another counselor who said, if what they're doing doesn't make sense to you, you don't know enough. If you're like, that's kind of weird, you don't know enough. you should keep asking until you'd be able to say, I understand why you did that. It doesn't make it right. We all have areas. But it's like, I, get it. I get why you did that. Which means I know how to better help reorient. So that may take a while. But you want to first hear and enter into their suffering. Then, you want to show them the beauty of God and His ways. As it relates, In part, to what they've shared with you. So you're connecting it. You're not going, we did that. Now, let me show you a curriculum where we go through Pink's attributes of God. And they're like, what in the world does that have to do with what I just said to you? So you're thinking, what do I know about the beauty of God and His ways that connect with what she has shared? That's what I want to do next. Then I want to show her, as you're seeing how beautiful God is, guess what your purpose is? To show everybody else how beautiful He is. So now you share, this is why God created you. Then only when now you're at step four before we're talking about why do you think you don't live that out? And now we're talking about idolatry. The temptation you meet with them and they say something, you go, oh, that's people pleasing . Oh, I got that one. Let's go.
Jocelyn: know how to talk about that.
Janet: Yeah, I go there. It's like, okay, do they understand the beauty of God in his way is they don't? Do they even want that? Do they see why they should? Do they understand their purpose? And then, that's an amazing purpose but we don't live it out. Why not? What gets in the way? I'm going after other things. Now we talk about that. And it's not then until step five with all of that in place, how do I grow and change? Now we're into the put off and put on and the practical. Now, you don't, not touch anything about how to grow, but your focus is gonna be probably in that order. But then you're going to have times when it's not. But for me, especially as a newer counselor, to kind of go, Okay, where am I in this? So where should my focus be? you don't have someone that you can sit in and watch, you can ask someone, whether they're local or not, Can I write up what I did in counseling? Would you read it and give me feedback? So seek that out if that would be helpful to you. It's great if it can be another woman. But you know what? If it's your pastor, that's great! It doesn't have to be a woman.
Jocelyn: No, I think that that cross gender observations are way helpful sometimes.
Janet: Yes, yes.
Jocelyn: I agree. I think that you're counseling people whether you know it or not, within the relationships that you already have. So look at how you're already talking to people within the relationships that you already have. And just don't make it something in your head, like oh, now I'm formally counseling. You already are counseling. Every time you talk to your kids, you're counseling. Every time you talk to your Sunday school class, you're counseling. another way to be more confident, though, is to do something formal, like lead a small group or lead a Bible study, where in that role, you're given the leader position. Which means that you have the authority to say how the Bible study day goes, or what the schedule looks like, or the structure of how you're going to be reading this book. And it puts you in a place to be the person that people come to with questions. And so you can attempt to answer questions in the context of that Bible study. I also think the same thing about mentoring. Mentoring means something, and counseling means something, so mentoring doesn't mean quite the same thing. But you prep yourself for counseling by learning how to do relationships, where your friend says something, and you don't just jump down her throat. You come back to it and talk about it.
Janet: But you also don't ignore it.
Jocelyn: You don't ignore it.
Janet: Because you love her. Right.
Jocelyn: Yeah. And so, just that kind of formalized mentoring relationship would be really helpful. This is one that I think I've been counseling, I've been certified since 2006, so I've been counseling for like two years longer than that, you've been counseling for decades. I'm only just now getting skillful at this, is make sure that you're giving people advice, and it has nothing to do with what you think about something.
Janet: And I will tell you, that's hard.
Jocelyn: It's really hard. So when people ask a question, you don't say, well I think you should. You say, here's what Jesus says in the Bible, or here's how God addresses that issue. Because
Janet: Let's go to this passage, which means you gotta know where to go, which takes a lifetime.
Jocelyn: But it's like, no one is coming to counseling to hear what you think about anything. It's not gonna be helpful to them in the long run. If your thoughts are biblical thoughts, then that's appropriate to, you know, then they would care what you're saying. But ultimately, what we need to care about giving people is the Word of God, because that is living, that's active, that's sharp, that's able to cut to the point. Don't just, I think sometimes with counselors you're like, Oh, when will I know enough to be able to share what I think? And there's never going to come a point where that's the point.
Janet: Yeah. But that temptation is so real.
Jocelyn: And it's because it's like, and it feels like a lot of pressure, like I gotta know what to say.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: Additionally, ask in your sphere of influence if there's anyone who would like to be mentored by you or even counseled by you. You could just say, I'm practicing counseling. Like, I'd like to have a practice person. And then, like Janet said, sit in on other people's counseling. I learned a lot by watching other people, especially men counsel, because they counsel differently than women counsel. just make sure you're approaching counseling humbly. We don't ever, ever want to think that our good success is because of us and our skill. It's much better to go into counseling and say, the only thing I have to offer you is Jesus and his word. And so, I can do that in a bunch of different relationships. Counseling is just formal. Like, you're coming to me with a purpose, and I'm gonna send you off with homework. And so, you get good at it as you're going. And when I look back on how I got started, It was really because I had a need to start and every step that I went was just the next natural step forward. It wasn't like I had a whole thing planned out. It was like I needed to help people and I didn't know how to give them answers. So I went to the place where I could learn how to give the answers. Then I needed more answers. Then I needed different answers. And so if someone said, I want you to counsel someone on this topic, it's likely that I know how to because I've been doing it for two and a half decades. But it's only because, at one point, someone needed to know that, and so I studied about it. And so, it's not like you have to have this big, like, curriculum full of stuff all figured out. You just study it as you go. And also, like, every church is different, but I really, really, really love having a supervisor that I can go to with questions. And so, you don't have to know everything. You need to know Jesus, and you need to have good leadership that helps you think through stuff.
Janet: Yeah, I do think having someone that can help you, and, for both of us, I would say, Well, I can't think of any counseling that I do that is not under the authority of one of the pastors. so I have someone that I can go to. And that's really helpful. How about, we'll go to the next one.
Jocelyn: Okay.
Janet: Number six there.
Jocelyn: I'll read it for you. How do you stay joyful and content at work? Interacting with people when you are an introvert. How do you do that Janet? You're like the opposite of an introvert.
Janet: You know, it depends on the day though.
Jocelyn: Does it?
Janet: Yes. Yes, but it's funny, you know, those are labels we give, so then I'm like, well, I don't know where I really am on there. Because when I'm in my flesh, fear of man, this, I don't want to be around anybody. But is that because I'm introverted or just terrified? I don't know. But, so, pray. I have to truly be living on mission. I am not, my joy isn't because things are easy and comfortable. My joy is because I actually believe that... I've said to God, I don't, many times, and a lot recently, of just saying, I know you're holding my hand, and because you are and you're going before me, I can go do this. And if I want to look like you, I'm going to walk in the room and love somebody. And I can do that. Is it because I love doing that? As a people pleaser, no. That's risk. You walk up to someone, Who knows how that's going to go? And am I going to look stupid? Or are they going to, as has happened to me at church, I met them four weeks in a row, and then they, cut their hair and changed its color. You should not be allowed to do that when you're visiting a new church. And then expect me to remember you enough to not be confused by that. So, it takes a lot of vulnerability. but when I'm on mission, I get the privilege of all the people around me, because I was there that day, they're supposed to have a little bit better understanding of what Jesus is like. That's what you're doing. That's amazing. I can rejoice when I'm tired when that's what I'm doing. I can also save energy for it. If I know it depletes me, if I'm on mission, I don't wear myself out doing the things I prefer and then go into work exhausted. Because I'm sick of people already. I want to spend my energy the way God has called me to. And for some people, being around people is energizing and that's great. For some it is not. I don't know that it's particularly energizing for me but I love it. And if I need to recharge, am I choosing things that refresh me, so I'm ready to go give? Or am I distracting myself, and just going, I'm so glad I'm alone. And then when you have to get up, it's even worse. Like, Uhhhh. That wasn't a recharge. This week, I'm exhausted. And God gives grace. And then I love it. And then you come to the end of the week and am I glad it's over? Yeah. And am I glad we did it? Yeah. And I have, it's exciting. It's probably one of my favorite weeks of the year. And then I go home and my husband and I sit. And there's a while before anybody says anything. And that's okay.
Jocelyn: I can identify with this because I'm more naturally an introvert than Janet. I find people exhausting. And when I deal with a lot of people, I find it extremely exhausting. So, here's how I stay joyful when I'm around a lot of people who are taking a lot of things from me. Is that, first of all, I'm reminded that it's more blessed to give than receive. Because what I want to think is it's more blessed to receive than give. And I just want people to give me what I need, which is not asking me questions or needing stuff from me. And so when I focus on myself and what I prefer, I'm much more likely to stay home, to kind of like protect myself, like that's where I'm safe, people don't touch me all day long and need me. but when I remember that I get joy and obedience, then I do hard things and God produces joy in that. And so it's not, I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything to say like people are exhausting. But dealing with stuff all day long is tiring. if you're tethered to the source of strength, that will be helpful. Because then you're not thinking that you're doing it. And if you have a right perspective on your role, like you're not their savior, you are pointing to their savior, that will also be a lot less exhausting. If I, as a natural introvert, am able to go into the public, into the wild, and serve people, And people know that my preference is to not be around a bunch of people, but I am able to I'm able to serve them. What that's saying is something about the God that equipped me to do that. And so I think that our natural tendencies, when we work against them can really draw a lot of glory to God because we're not dealing with our natural strengths, we're unnaturally dealing with our weaknesses. And God gives us supernatural strength.
Janet: And then he gets the glory for that.
Jocelyn: Yeah, he gets the glory.
Janet: I just recently got to share my testimony in a couple of our adult bible fellowships. I've had several people tell me they were very surprised. Because I picked my major in college based on the one that did not require public speaking. That's how I chose my major. I became a Christian in college. But, I won't get into the long story, but, I mean, I was terrified of being, I would not be in front of people and when I'm scared I'm stubborn and you could not make me get in front of you. So what that means is this is the Lord. This is not, I mean my family is like you do what? I know, crazy and it's awesome and I enjoy it. I think the other thing that can be helpful is think through the connection to the gospel. Jesus, you have examples of Him getting away because He's tired, He gets off the boat and there's thousands of people. And what does He do? He ministers to them. Because He loves them. He was tired. So when you're doing that, you're the aroma of Christ and He understands. He gets it. And I'm so thankful He did that all the way to the cross. So if him loving others at his own expense all the way to death is what saved me then me loving others at my own expense is beautiful it is just a taste in a small way I'm not comparing but it gives me, thank you Lord for doing that and now thank you that you want to help me do that.
Jocelyn: Excellent. Want to do number 7?
Janet: Sure. What resources or advice would you give to 6 12 year old kids whose moms had a miscarriage? My first thought is there's so much here I don't know. With all of these questions, whoever asked it is probably going, Okay, well that wasn't this, but I know we have to stay pretty general, because there's a lot we don't know. I don't know that I have a lot on miscarriage, but they're grieving. A child has died. So any of the resources on grieving and loss apply to this. And we do have a lot on that. The MRC has a lot. There's one, questions children ask about grief and death. And there's another one called Grief and Your Child. It may not be about miscarriage, but recognize that's what miscarriage is. And so, I think we do have a lot about that. And I think you had some ideas.
Jocelyn: Yeah, there's, I was just looking up the book to make sure I was going to say the name correctly, but. There's a book called The Moon is Always Round that we sell in the MRC, you can get it here at the conference, and it's specifically about a miscarriage and a child walking through that. I also think there's a grown up book called God's Healing for Life's Losses by Bob Kellerman that is super fantastic. It's not, I don't think it's too difficult for a child to understand. And when a family is reading it together and walking through it together, it'll be much more meaningful. You don't hand it to the child and say, read it. Like, you read it as family devotions or something and talk about it together. But I think that it's important to grieve a miscarriage like the dearly loved human that that baby was. And some, I think grown ups were able to understand, okay, sometimes a miscarriage is like a genetic anomaly. We can praise the Lord for his sovereignty and his care in not allowing this child to continue to develop. But a kid can't understand that the way that we can. And so that child needs to be able to acknowledge the humanness of that baby. And to celebrate it with memorials or, you know, special things that would bring attention to that child and the hope that they had, for that baby that was gonna come. But I think it is a grief issue. You handle it like grief.
Janet: Yes. Yes. Let's go to number four.
Jocelyn: Okay.
Janet: How do we talk to children about masturbation? Do we talk to them prior to them even finding out that there is such a thing as pleasing yourself? so you can tell in track six, if you're not in track six, we were talking about all these things. That's where that probably came from. Again, you know your child, these are just principles to just be considering because, you know, we started with only give the Bible and now we're giving our thoughts, right? Yeah. But realize, generally speaking, they and us, we're all born pleasing ourselves. That's in every area, right? Just like us. So they can be learning that concept. How it seems that focusing on myself and what pleases me will bring me the greatest joy. But it doesn't. So that at whatever point we start bringing in more, you're just building on the same concept.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: This isn't like a totally different thing.
Jocelyn: Because masturbation is an application of that as well as overeating and punching your sister. Like you do whatever you want because you're making it makes you happy.
Janet: So even before I'm gonna go there I'm gonna be giving them opportunities of experience that loving others is actually more pleasing and satisfying than loving yourself. I mean we know that when you focus on yourself It's never enough but when you're focused on loving others, you'll actually have a better time, right? So give them opportunities. I would say Wherever we can allow them to experience it, rather than lecture them about it, is better. So I can tell my child, you're being selfish, giving to others is more important, and here's what they're thinking. No way. Or, you can give them opportunities. You know, when we lived in Chicago, My son was in first grade. They know we talk about them and they're okay with it. I always feel the need to qualify that.
Jocelyn: Disclaimer that.
Janet: Yeah. My son was speaking in this track and he gave an illustration. He goes, well, mom's probably already told you this. I actually hadn't, but he just assumes now. but we were in first grade, we were living in Chicago for one school year, doing a lot of things. We had a really big day. Like Fridays were let's see the city because we're not going to live here forever. Brent didn't have school on Friday. I homeschooled Monday through Thursday so we could do things. Took the train, went to the zoo, went to some museum, took the train back home. We walk back in and Josh says, is that all we're going to do? I was mad. I'm like, are you kidding me? So thankfully, I have a husband. So before I could begin the lecture, which was, I mean, almost out my mouth, because I turned to look at him, and Brent goes, I got it. Okay. So he sat him on his lap, and he said, Thank you for showing us that the Bible is true. That the eyes of man are never satisfied. And when you're focused on yourself, this is where that leads. And he said, and you've made me aware that we're not doing enough to allow you to see a better way. So we're going to be doing a lot more serving. And it was really cool because we did an open house in our apartment. Nobody in a Chicago apartment does an open house for their apartment mates. And we did. So they worked at getting everything ready and getting food ready, which I believe nobody was planning to come because who's going to come. So I warned them if nobody comes, we've honored the Lord in trying, but I'm like, please God, let somebody come. So my son is standing out in the hall, this young woman comes in her apartment is like right there, but we had put notes under everybody's door. They wrote them. They colored them. They're all under there and She's just getting home from work trying to get in her door Josh is standing in the hall and he yells all the way down the hall Are you coming? Are you coming? She goes Just let me change my clothes. And she came. she also came to church with us. Told us about a breakup. We built a friendship. Another woman came because she felt sorry for us because she thought we were alone. And, that was alright. We got to know her. It's a long story I won't get into with the Russian Mafia, but it was fascinating. Truly. And they came to Christ. It was awesome. But, the point was get them doing. So then we moved back home, went to a nursing home, and did some things, got back in the car and Josh goes, well that felt good. And I turned around and said, you don't need more. He's a smart kid, so he smiled and he goes, no, that was just good. I'm like, that's what you need to taste. You need to taste that it feels good to love other people. You don't need me to lecture you. Well, what does that have to do with masturbation? Because that's the it feels good to me. And I want to show them in other ways first. You know what's even better is considering others more important. And then I get to tell them about that area. Did you know that that was designed for you to give pleasure to someone else, not you? That's not for you. That's for you to give. And so you protect that for when you're able to give. But now they have a context for it, because we've been doing it in other areas.
Jocelyn: In addition to that wonderful theology, I'll say some practical things, that kids really need to be taught appropriate names for body parts, and taught, like, what these things are called and what they're used for. Because we just assume that little kids know that, and they don't know that. We know what a body part is for, because Jesus teaches us. So I think it's appropriate to teach preventatively. Starting with little amounts of information and then following the questions, just like teaching your kids about sex in general should be that way. but to add that there are parts of the body that God designed to do multiple things. So one of them is to give pleasure or to receive pleasure, but that's not the only reason that it's there. And so there's also, when you're doing this whole body education and safe touch education.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: There's also, you have also have other parts of your body that you can use incorrectly to receive pleasure, not just your private areas. So you can use your mouth to receive illegitimate pleasure through food. Or you can use your eyes.
Janet: Or through words that make you more important than someone else.
Jocelyn: You can use your eyes to receive illegitimate pleasure through looking at something that is not godly. So there's, I mean, your private areas are not the only ways that you can use a body part to receive illegitimate pleasure. So just teach them, God made your body. He told you what it's for, and it's important for all of us to use the parts of our body in the way that honors the Lord. And so, like, we don't push each other with our hands, we help each other with our hands. We don't play with our pee pee for fun, we use our pee pee to go potty. And so, you follow the development of the child in your explanation, but at some point, you're going to have further conversations about that and say There are additional things that God uses that part of your body for and one of them is that when you get married you're gonna be able to use that to make your spouse feel extremely happy and we're so excited for you We don't hide it. We build it. I learned that from Brent and Janet like you build sex as beautiful as God makes it. It's beautiful and there's lots of practical things like I was involved with a child when they were little that would masturbate herself to sleep and she was like a year and a half. So she just discovered it. Like, she just played with herself and realized that it felt good. And in that case, she'll just have to say that is not what we use our hands for. We keep our hands out of our diaper. At nap time, we lay our head down, and we go to sleep. And so, you address the issue. I don't think you want to just like sit down and lecture your kids, but you follow your kids where the questions leave you, but there's a lot like we incorporated into our whole parenting plan from the very beginning that talking about the body God's way was super important. And we incorporated lots of safe touch education because the world has a lot of sexual information, and I want them to hear it from me. And I want that conversation to start in infancy, and I want it to go on forever. And so, body parts, teaching what God, the theology of the body, it's just all super important. It's part about being a human being.
Janet: And I think the Resource Center has a series of books.
Jocelyn: Oh yeah, they're good.
Janet: For different ages, and so can give you a starting point for having those conversations, if that's uncomfortable. Let's see.
Jocelyn: What was that, four? Yes. Got it.
Janet: Any, this is one, any resources for adding laughter to our lives? Your answer that you wrote down.
Jocelyn: Should I say it first?
Janet: Come on!
Jocelyn: I never think about this. Never. I said, I literally have nothing. It doesn't even cross my mind. When I feel stressed out, I pray or I cry. I laugh with Janet and I leave and I'm like, that was fun.
Janet: I'm like, we laugh all the time. What are you kidding?
Jocelyn: No, but I don't think about how to bring it into my life. I just think that was awesome.
Janet: That's why you have me.
Jocelyn: I know, you are my comedic relief. But, yeah, I just don't think that way. So, I love laughter. It just happens upon me, I guess.
Janet: It happens. how do we, so I was like, that's just a fun question. But, for me right now, my granddaughter Arie is my joy break.
Jocelyn: That's probably why I don't any answers for this.
Janet: Yes, you don't have a granddaughter yet. Yes. she makes us laugh. So she is our, when life is heavy. And there have been times that Brent will say, Do you think we could just go see her for like 10 minutes? And I'm like, We need to call. We're not going to be those people that just show up at their house. Hey, we're in the neighborhood. We're actually in your driveway. Could we come in for a minute? So, we try not to do that. But, so, Because she has no idea. When life is hard, so she is a, joy break for us. But we do have, a few comedians that we will pull up the free YouTube clips because we don't have a lot of the other things, but we have that. I like Nate Bargetsy. I really like him. He may be a believer, I'm not really sure, but his is clean. I like Michael Jr., who is a believer. so we'll just look those up for, like if these have been, Brent will go, Hey, are there any new clips?
Jocelyn: Aw, that's so sweet.
Janet: And we'll put it up on the TV and just laugh for a couple of minutes, you know. now, we have enjoyed Michael McIntyre. He is funny, and most of his stuff is family friendly. And then there will be one that isn't. So. That's not always worth it. Yeah, that's not always worth it. But he had a TV show, so when we can find clips of his TV show, that's usually great because it was on TV, so.
Jocelyn: That's so fun.
Janet: It's helpful. So,
Jocelyn: Who knew you were into comedy, Janet?
Janet: I know. It's crazy. I know. Just some of these people make us laugh. So when things are heavy, we'll even be in bed and he'll say, did you see, yeah, I'll look up a clip. We'll watch one before we go to bed. So we don't do it all the time, but add laughter to your lives. some little things like that. My granddaughter and I would just say, have people in your life that you can be able to laugh at yourself. . It can be very difficult if what makes you laugh most is everybody else. that can be hurtful. So learning to laugh at yourself, can be helpful. So, there's that one.
Jocelyn: Let's do eight, but you might want to summarize the question. In a class on handling your past biblically, Brent mentioned that we can't handle our past until we view it the way God sees it. And he used the example of women who have been severely abused by their parents and the importance of getting them to view that as evil for them, rather than justifying it in some way and saying that their parents loved them. And so she's asking us to unpack this and to basically say, Why can't we conclude that God was sovereign, he knew that it was evil, and he used it for good? Like, why do we have to get the counselee or the woman to understand that what happened to them was wicked? And I'm gonna start with answering this one. Is that cool? Here's my thoughts on this. We have both worked with a lot of traumatized people, and one of the consistent qualities that I see is that the girl believed their parents. That's what put them in the place for that abuse to continue. And it's understandable.
Janet: It's understandable. That's not wrong of her.
Jocelyn: No, but she believed her parents. And one of the consistent skills an abusive parent is to convince the child that it's a good thing and that it's fun. Or that it's called something different. And so, I believe that it's really important for us to call the action what it's called. And some of my most shocking moments in counseling have been When I called it what it's legally called, and the person that I was counseling was so offended. And I was like, wait a second, that's what it's called. It's called rape. They're like, no it's not. That's not what it's called. And so, I think the reason why Brent probably said that is because if we call it what God calls it, then we can use the solutions that God gives us.
Janet: There's hope there.
Jocelyn: And if we call it what it's legally called, there's solutions for what it's legally called. If your parent rapes you, then they should be held accountable to the law for a parent raping a child. And so, I think probably, the reasoning behind why Brent said it that way is because if you call it what it truly is, and those kind of terrible abusive things are sin, then you can deal with them the way that the Bible teaches us to deal with that particular sin. And also, if you call it what it is legally, then you have a recourse for it. You have something to do with that. So we're not saying anything about God's sovereignty. Or like, we're not saying that we see it as something good when God has called it bad. Or that God can't do something good with something that was difficult. It's just, I think, being precise is what he was getting at.
Janet: And I think, as I, I'm going to read more of the question, because I think even in the question, You were answering yourself, I thought you did a good job, because you said, To view it as evil is hard. True. You have to acknowledge the evil and abandonment and it hurts deeply. True. And it's good that you care about that, that you're not just going, just call it that. Yes, that's true. It's not an easy place to go. But we don't stop there, correct? True. What's the next step? So then she starts talking through, like, would it be this? And I'm like, I think you actually did a good job. Seeing that though my father and mother have forsaken me, the Lord will take me in. That'd be one thing we'd want to talk about. God didn't do that.
Jocelyn: That's proper theology.
Janet: Yeah, that's awesome and hope. Then how do we not become bitter and angry towards our parents? You're right. She said, I think Genesis 50:20 applies what they meant for evil, God meant for good. I agree.
Jocelyn: Yeah, clearly.
Janet: But I think it's difficult not to allow bitterness to settle. True. And what implications for, does that have? If I see the sin of my parents for what it is, then hopefully that sheds light onto my own sin. And gives me a new understanding of the gravity of sin. And a renewed desire to not want to do that. And then she said, is this correct? And I'm like, sounds like you're getting there.
Jocelyn: But it's still biblically true to hold people accountable for their decisions. And so while all that good theology is true, there is still appropriate accountability for the people who, Enacted those wicked things.
Janet: And that will be up to the person right to decide if they, but yes. So we're gonna talk about justice and righteousness, but you know what it may become obvious. This is a long time. This is a lot. This isn't I did a week on that I did a week on that and I did a week on that and you're not bitter, right? Cuz we talked about that and you're right everything you said there. This is really hard. Yes, a lot of time learning how to cry out to God and be honest. How long Oh Lord? And then, but they're my parents. Yes. And how do I, I remember in my own life, and I did not have these things happen, so I don't in any way want to try to say, I've been there. I've not had to do this. But in my own life, I struggled with my father. and I remember, When I was a believer, my first round of thinking was, I'm angry that I can't go to my father for help. I'm angry that he's not being very paternal. He doesn't seek to protect, all the things. And it was as I matured and talked to some people, and I still remember getting to where I thought, what if the reason he's in my life isn't for what he can do for me, but so I can actually show him a better way. But it's not what I want. I want a dad who, right. And then I was able to see, look at the people God has put in your life who are paternal, but it's not your dad. And it hurts. And it's not wrong that it hurts. And it's not like, so get over it. No, it hurts. But it turned me to, I don't need to be bitter. my dad needs somebody to tell him about Jesus. Instead of me just being mad that he's not the dad I want. So for them, that's going to take longer.
Jocelyn: And in abusive situations, like this is talking about. that might be proctored. Like, you may go do that in a safe way. Not exposing yourself to future harm. There's so much context.
Janet: But the mindset can move from, I'm bitter because that was my dad, to, if my dad doesn't repent, that's not going to go well. So
Jocelyn: And you can do that.
Janet: I can be sobered by that and know that there is justice.
Jocelyn: And in situations where the abusive parent is in jail, that kind of redemptive work can be done in that context.
Janet: That's right.
Jocelyn: There's not a limit to the redemptive capacity of a situation like that. I think one reason to speak to why it takes so long, why there's so much time involved, is because abuse really attacks who you are as a person, as a human being. And so there's a lot of talking to God about Who am I?
Janet: Relearning.
Jocelyn: Who am I according to what you say, not according to what someone else has told me that I am, and how do I believe only what the scripture says and not what some human has said. And so all of us ultimately need to say what does it mean to be a human according to God's standards, but especially someone who has been abused. I think that's why it's so disgusting in God's eyes. It's an attack on their being made in the image of God and it's supposed to be protected.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: do you want to do nine? How do you handle a family situation where an aunt has told you her sister, my other aunt, doesn't really like me, her niece, because I have a closer relationship with the aunt than her sister does? I don't know how to handle it since this wasn't directly communicated to me by the jealous aunt. What would be the most God honoring thing to do in such a situation?
Janet: Can I, just, my heart hurt when I read this. This is the pain of unbiblical communication.
Jocelyn: Because you can't do anything about it.
Janet: So, yeah, before you figure out what to do let's recognize what has happened. How was you knowing that? How was that helpful or edifying for you in any way? And I'm not, I understand the other aunt, I'm not trying to attack anyone. I want you to see. This is the Ugliness and devastation that comes when we talk out of turn. A. K. A. gossip. Slander. And it hurts. Here's what's really difficult for whoever, so if I'm talking to the niece, that's who's asking this. Here's one of the many difficult things about that. You don't actually know what was said.
Jocelyn: Yeah, or why it was said.
Janet: You think you know. But if you heard the whole context, it could change the whole thing. or the aunt may have been saying, and I know it's not her fault, but I just get mad. Haven't you ever been there, where you're mad at somebody and jealous for the wrong reasons? Would you want someone to go tell them? It's not their fault. That's your issue. So, we have to realize, number one, we've kind of all done that. But when it's coming at you, it hurts. And you don't really know what was said. And I don't know that you really have a biblical venue to go ask. If I were to do anything, I'd go back to the aunt who talked to you.
Jocelyn: That's what I was thinking, yeah.
Janet: And say, I'm struggling with what was said here. Can you help me understand what you were wanting me to do with that information? I just wanted you to know. Can you help me understand why? It colors how I view that aunt, and I'm not able to talk to her about it. So, here's what would be ideal, is for the aunt who talked to you, to say, you're right, please forgive me, at least that's handled. That may not happen, and I can't make that happen. But, that's part of the pain of that. And, in that conversation with the aunt who talked to you, How do you move that from horizontal to vertical? So, it's not primarily because it's hard for me, though that's a reality. I don't know how to honor the Lord with that information. Aunt, how do you advise me to honor the Lord with the information you gave me? Well, I just thought you'd want to know. She's going horizontal again. You've got to keep going vertical. You go, well, how did you think that would help me honor the Lord? Do you believe the Lord was honored by us having that conversation? That's really hard. Because you love your aunts. I get that. That's the one that I would be talking to, and that's going vertical. What matters is, how do we honor the Lord, was that biblical communication, not primarily how did it affect me, but it is helpful to ask, what were you wanting me to do with that? How were you wanting me to honor the Lord with that?
Jocelyn: And in divisive situations, divisive family situations especially, there's just so much pain. And sometimes you can get feisty in the pain and get argumentative. And after you've done all the problem solving that Janet was talking about, there is a really good amount of self reflection that can happen as you think. Why did it bug me so much to find out that my one aunt is unhappy with me? And what kind of idolatry is that exposing in my heart? What kind of, flaws do I see where I'm not reflecting the glory of God the way that I should, the image of God, and How can I grow even in the situation that I did not ask to be a part of in here I got plopped right in the middle of it? And there's something between those two aunts that now I got foisted in the middle of so even in that situation and again the context matters like how do I make sure that those aunts are not pitting me against each other in their feud? And so I would encourage them even all the more to go, to be a peacemaker, to figure out their situation between the two of them that I got sucked into in some way.
Janet: Because what we know is the God of the universe who loves you allowed that to happen. So there has to be a redemptive reason even for you. You're not just a victim of people talking unbiblically. Praise God. Now, it doesn't mean it was biblical talk, because I don't believe it was. But even in that, God is gonna use that to refine you, and it might be your willingness to love your aunt by having a hard conversation. That might be one of the many things.
Jocelyn: I think sometimes handling hard stuff correctly glorifies God more than us doing things Correctly all the time.
Janet: Yes, so that we never have to do the hard.
Jocelyn: We never have to fix it. Like sometimes Addressing problems actually is very illustrative of God's image, and it's really powerful. Yeah. Let's say number ten what types of opportunities are most effective for women's ministry In a church with a very small staff in order to develop mature disciples and promote true fellowship.
Janet: I have no idea well, I would say every church context is different, so again, it's not, Oh, you have 150 people? Here's what you do. Every church context is different. What can be helpful when you say mature disciples and true fellowship, what do you mean by that? And I just, and not that those are bad things, those are obviously, I mean, those are good things. I would be talking to your pastor about what his goals are. How can you help him achieve them? Not, I've got my goals, he's got his, and let's hope they don't crash a lot. But, go share your heart to your pastor. And say, what do you think about this? Like, I am just burdened that I want our women. He may go, yes, I mean, yes! You want to be helping your pastor, not just doing your own thing. So, but, you know, when I think about mature disciples, I think biblically literate about doctrine. and practical life like your heart. Because you can be doctrinally sound and really ignorant about your own sin. So if I were gonna say what is a mature disciple they're biblically literate. So then, you know, I've talked with my pastor each church is different. You don't need to change the church or even have the whole church go a different direction. But you know what you could do is be living that way. Be an encouragement to the people around you, maybe have some people over in your home and study something together, and let the Lord allow that to go the direction, but I would be talking with my pastor.
Jocelyn: And immediately my first thought was like, let's brainstorm like solutions, but the best solution is Titus 2. What does Titus 2 exist for? It says to adorn the gospel. So, the Relationships Between Generations in the Church was designed to disciple the younger and edify the older. So, the older people are already discipled, they have some knowledge of God and how to live out his word, and they're helping younger women, younger men, learn how to do that. And the purpose of that is that the beauty of the gospel is adorned. And so, that program, if you want to call it that, is a tiny church. Like, well, not tiny. 150 is not tiny. But, a small church that just, like, The context of Titus, that, the book that Titus was written for. So, that same model is like one on one discipleship. Like, that's, there's not a better way of fellowship than one on one discipleship. And, living that out in the context of the local church is gonna give you lots of application opportunities. So, Titus 2 is a great example. you don't have to do a certain book, or a certain program, or a certain plan to do the concepts that are in the scripture. Yeah, life on life in the scripture. Okay, I'll ask you this one. Being married to a pastor or elder has its own unique challenges that it can bring to marriage. Have you ever noticed that?
Janet: No way.
Jocelyn: When the pastor or elder's wife sees her husband fully pouring into the ministries of the church and meeting needs of their flock, yet does not see him putting in the same effort into drawing near to her and nourishing his relationship with her, how can she help him to understand this? There has already been some communication.
Janet: I hear the pain in this. I understand. And more than that, Jesus understands. And we keep coming back to that. Because I think we have to remember that. and with this being a Q& A, there's so much I don't know about this. Like, this is my frustration with Q& As. My husband always says to me, when you get a question, go broad and just tell them that you're going broad. But everything in me is like, I have like 8, 000 questions for you right now, before I feel like I would even know what to say. But if you remember, if you were in track 6 and we talked about intimacy, we repeated over and over, you can't be a good lover to your earthly spouse until we're growing to be a good lover with our heavenly spouse. So, remember that. Is it possible, your husband may not have the best priorities? Because, right, I don't really know. But, let's just assume that. Remember, he's not your first spouse. When I start to put the weight on my marriage, of this is how he's a godly man, he's a pastor, it should be, I'm probably heading down a place that's not going to be helpful. So lean into your heavenly spouse first. But I'm not saying that this isn't real, I'm not saying it doesn't hurt. But you will add hard to your hard. When those priorities are reversed, and they naturally are reversed, it's super natural for them to be in the right order. When that's the priority, I do, I bring my pain, my loneliness, my hurt, to the lover of my soul, to my heavenly spouse. If you remember in the intimacy session we talked about, that's how he describes himself. Not as the overlord God that you must serve, but he says, I've married you. Like, that's how he describes himself. And our marriages are shadows of that one, not the other way around. So focus on that one first. I'm not saying we're ignoring the other. That's going to help you put the other one in the right priority. To know Ephesians 3:16-21, more in my life. What is that? The depth and the height and the width and the length of God's love in Christ for me. Me. Not, I teach it to others, I know it, I memorize it. For me. Maybe this situation is at least, among many other things, an opportunity to deepen that one. Out of that, I get to say, Jesus, would you help me love the soul of my husband? If my husband's priorities are not God's priorities for him. I should talk to him. Not because he's not doing for me all that he does for them. Because that's all horizontal, right? Here we are again. And then, I'm not saying your husband's like this, but here's what can happen. You're just overly sensitive, nothing's ever enough for you. And now we've all stayed horizontal and we got nowhere. Because maybe you are oversensitive, but maybe not. But you made it about you, so he made it about you too. So I have to tell wives all the time, I work on these other areas and then I'm able to go to him because I love him and I want him to give a good account. And if he's prioritizing the church over his marriage and family, I believe those are not God's priorities. So now I go to him out of love for him because I want him to give a good account and it will change how I go. I don't go saying, you hurt me. You don't care about me like you care about them. Why do you do that? I go and say, Honey, I love you and I believe that you want to honor the Lord. And there's so much I appreciate about the way you serve. I am concerned that you may not see. That from my perspective, I'm not sure your priorities line up with God. Would you allow me to talk with you about that? Very different. Because I'm working on this one. I have a perfect spouse. And because I have a perfect spouse, I can now engage with an imperfect spouse. For his good and God's glory. Not primarily for me. And we talked about this some in the intimacy. Their sin affects me and it impacts me but it's not about me. When they stand before the Lord, I won't be there going, uh huh. It's going to be between them. And if I love my husband, I want that to go well. Not, I deserve better. He's a pastor. He should be doing this for me. I've stayed horizontal, that's going to hurt. And he might be out of balance. It would be great if you got some help together. And you're going to say to me, he doesn't think we have a problem. I know. Look at yourself first, because I am going to tell you this. There was at least one incident, there's been many others I know, but one that just etched in my brain, where I knew my husband was behaving unbiblically toward me, but I also knew that I was bitter and angry, and I knew enough truth to know I wasn't allowed to go to him until I dealt with that. So I'm in the bathroom, on my knees, which tells me how long ago it was I was hiding from my children, and it was the only place to be alone, so I had the door closed. So I'm leaning by the tub, and praying. Because I wanted to get my heart right so I could go tell him what he needs. which is part of the problem. So, I know God that I am bitter, but he, no, we're not going to go. I know, twenty minutes, which feels like eight years when you're wrestling like that. wrestle my soul down. Quiet soul. I see that I was, I clamor because I really just want to know that my husband thinks I'm amazing and I'm his number one priority. I know that, so I gotta deal with that. Okay, God. chooses to love me. It's okay. Deal with all of that. I got up and I thought I actually have a quiet soul. I really want to talk to him for his good, not for what he would do for me. And I walked out the door and realized I had nothing to say to him he had not sinned. But I had such blinders that I could not see. That stayed with me because I was shocked at how blind I could be. I'm not saying you are. Please don't hear that. I don't know.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: But I'm saying you won't know until you deal with yours. And now I can, and because there have been times I do go to him. And there are things that I'm concerned about. But when I'm able to go in the depth of my loving spouse, heavenly, then I can go because I want him to have that too. And he may be blind. He may be feeling the pressure of the church, and he feels like, so many things could be happening.
Jocelyn: There's lots of stuff, yeah.
Janet: But that has to be my goal.
Jocelyn: I have heard the verse, the mystery of Christ in the church. Like the marriage points to the mystery of Christ in the church, you know, for decades. I heard it explained recently in a way that shook me. So I was at this intensive retreat, serving some people, and our counselor said, We all know that there's no marriage in heaven, right? Why? And I was like, I don't know. That's a good question. I just know there's not. And he said, there is no marriage in heaven between humans because marriage between humans is no longer necessary in heaven. And I was like, whoa, that's right. And he said, marriage between humans on earth was designed to tell a story. It's an appetizer of the real thing. And when you get to the real thing, you don't need the shadow anymore. You have the real thing. And it contextualizes all of your married life on earth. It was a taste of the divine. But when you are with Jesus in heaven, you have the point.
Janet: You don't need the shadow.
Jocelyn: You don't need the shadow. And so, I learned this at that retreat that I was helping at. I came home and told my husband, we were just weeping. We were like, this gives perspective to every argument we've ever had, because my marriage on earth is designed to prepare me to make me fit for Jesus in heaven. And if what is exposed in my marriage on earth helps me to be more ready to enjoy Jesus than anything that I was exposed to in my marriage on earth is worth it. Every hard thing. I don't say it's not hard.
Janet: It is hard.
Jocelyn: It was worth it.
Janet: And it hurts.
Jocelyn: And when you can have that perspective together, then the two of you can say, we are married to prepare us to be with Jesus. And it gives a purpose and a context to conversations that you would not otherwise have. So you say, because I love you and I'm really excited for you to be with your bridegroom. I want to bring up an issue that I think you might be blind to. It's so different than saying you're not doing enough. You're not seeing my needs. It's all, like you said, all very horizontal focused But it just, man, that, I know the concept but it shook me to realize There's no marriage in heaven because it's not needed the appetizer is no longer necessary because we have the real meal. We're with the person that our marriage was pointing to.
Janet: And by faith, we can be living that now. We're just not there, which is what gives us the strength to be that taste for our spouse, whether they are that for us or not. Well, it has been an hour. So, I'm sorry we didn't get to all of them, but I told you that we would
Jocelyn: We got to almost all of them.
Janet: We would keep it to an hour. So let me pray for us. Father, what a way to end to be reminded that you're our bridegroom. And there is a wedding feast coming, the marriage supper of the Lamb. And then we get to be with our bridegroom and we will know this is what our soul's been longing for. And while we're here, if we are married, we get to show that divine parable in our marriages. And even if only one of us is showing it, what a platform to shine the glory of Christ. And if we are not married, we will not be concerned about not having the thimble full of an earthly marriage when we are in the ocean of our marriage to Christ, when we are with him. So we thank you for that hope. And I pray, Father, that you would help us to live out of that in all the areas of our lives, knowing that you do go with us, you do go before us, and we are going to be with you forever. And that anchors our souls. Thank you for that. And we know that's only because Jesus came and was willing to be humiliated and mocked and exposed and shamed and die and rise again so that we can be covered. in beautiful wedding gowns of his righteousness. So we thank you for him. Amen.
To keep from missing any future episodes, please sign up for our newsletter on our webpage faithlafayette.org/JJP From there you can also subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, or Spotify. You can also visit us on our Facebook page or Instagram at Joyful Journey Podcast. If you have questions or comments for us, you can email us at joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their website.
