Unjust Suffering
Janet Aucoin and Jocelyn Wallace discuss how the hesed love of God changes our perspective and response to unjust suffering. Sometimes we suffer as a result of someone else's sin. Sometimes we suffer due to circumstances outside of our control: an accident, a pandemic, or a variety of other results of living in a broken world. And it's not fair! Regardless, looking to our Savior's example and heart reorients our perspective and gives great hope.
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Transcript:
Resources:
Books
Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23 – Phillip Keller
Unpacking Forgiveness – Chris Brauns
Suffering: Eternity Makes a Difference booklet – Paul Tripp
How to Handle Trouble – Jay Adams
Suffering: Gospel Hope When Life doesn’t Make Sense – Paul Tripp
Fibromyalgia: God’s Grace for Chronic Pain Sufferers – Robert Smith
When God Weeps – Why our Sufferings Matter to the Almighty – Joni Earickson Tada and Steven Estes
Putting your past in its place – Stephen Viars
Suffering is never for nothing – Elisabeth Elliott
Blog
Joni and Friends: Lessons from Cancer
Janet: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Alexandra: I just want to make it as totally simple and no brainer as possible for ladies to see that
the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of
my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to
inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as
women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy. Typically, I’ll be joined by either
Jocelyn or Alexandra, but for our first full episode listen as all three of us discuss the topic of
joy.
Janet: Welcome back! Just as an aside, if you are being encouraged by any of these podcasts, if
you could please leave us a quick rating or review, so others would be able to find us more easily.
We'd really appreciate it. So welcome back everyone. I am Janet. And once again, I'm here with
Jocelyn. The last couple of weeks we talked about. God's amazing hesed if you didn't get to hear
that, I really encourage you to go back and listen to that. To think about what is hesed in part His
joy to commit Himself to people who are not committed to Him. Totally amazing. And then we
got to talk about how knowing and reveling in that kind of love that hesed is going to be what
motivates me to grow and showing that kind of love to others. So check that out because that's a,
a great background, a backdrop for what we're going to talk about today. An appropriate
follow-up to saying that's the kind of love God has for us. How is that going to help me with the
painful subject of unjust suffering? It's I really believe understanding God's hesed is going to
help us respond differently. Then, so first, what do I mean by unjust suffering? Here's my goal in
this session today, I'm really hoping to help all of us with what I've needed in this topic. Really
reorient my thinking about how I view unjust suffering. So this is a very specific goal on a
specific kind of suffering. I'm not here to talk about all kinds of suffering. So I'm dividing,
suffering, basically into two broad categories, just so you know what I'm talking about. I think
it's important. We try to define what we're talking about here. First kind of suffering is suffering
that happens because of my own sin and my own decisions. And that's true for all of us. It's not
like well that one person that really screwed up now they've suffered. We all suffer because of
our own decisions, our own sin and God has so much good news to say about that. Think about
His hesed with that committing Himself to you when you were not committed to Him. There is
good news. There is much grace, but that's not this episode. Then there is suffering not related in
any way to my own sin. That's what I'm calling unjust. And that can be a variety of things.
Again, suffering directly tied to the fact that I love Jesus. We call that persecution, right?
Matthew 5: 10, "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake." Why? "For theirs
is the kingdom of heaven." We're going to have to think about what that means. "Blessed are you
and others, revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my
account." Shocking words next. "Rejoice, and be glad for your reward is great in heaven for so
they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Somehow being persecuted leads to a
reward. And I'm going to need to understand that because understanding that is going to motivate
me and allow me to actually rejoice in it, not to desire to be persecuted, but to rejoice in it when
it happens. Then there's suffering just because we're in a sin cursed world disease, tragedy, I don't
know, global pandemic, things like that. Again, not directly tied to my own sin. And it makes
me think of John 9 where , there's this passage, John 9:1 "as He passed by, He saw a man blind
from birth and His disciples" they're talking to Jesus "asked Him, 'Rabbi who sinned? This man
or his parents that he was born blind.' And Jesus answered, 'It was not that this man sinned or his
parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.'" And whenever I've read that, I've
thought, is so cool. Can you imagine now he could see, and it was obvious that God did it, but
we have to think about that. He was a grown man. He had been blind for years and years and
years and not everybody gets healed. How can he rejoice in that? So we'll talk about that a little
bit at the end, but the one I'm going to focus on mostly in this podcast is the very painful
suffering that is suffering because of somebody else's sin.
Jocelyn: That's so hard. Hm.
Janet: When in that circumstance, not that anybody is sinless, but in that circumstance, you're
trying to do good.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And they're sinning. How do we think about that differently? That's going to give us hope
in that. The passage I think we want to talk through for that is in first Peter 2 and I'm just going
to read starting in verse 18. And then we'll talk about it a little bit, cause this really, did a number
on me when I studied this and I'll share, but specifically to help someone I love. And this was a
passage I needed to understand "Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to
the good and gentle. But also to the unjust" and I'm like, okay, well, I get that. I have to respect
even people who are unjust " for this as a gracious thing," or in other versions "it pleases God
when mindful of God, one endures sorrows, while suffering unjustly." Okay. So I've already got
a lot of questions. Why does it please God, to see me suffer when I don't deserve it? And then he
goes on "for what credit is it if when you sin, you're beaten for it. And then you endure that well.
But if, when you do good and suffer for it, you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of
God." This is a thing full of grace. Other versions say, "it's commendable. God is pleased."
Jocelyn: That's so shocking. And not a normal way of thinking.
Janet: No.
Jocelyn: It's so backward.
Janet: It seems like.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Now this is not true, but if we don't learn what that's about, it can seem like God takes this
pleasure in our pain.
Jocelyn: Like sadistic God.
Janet: Yes. Yes. So I'm going to, if I'm going to benefit from that, I really have to understand that.
Jocelyn: Definitely.
Janet: So primarily that's what we're going to focus on today. And at the end, we're just going to
touch on suffering just because we're in a sin cursed world. So when I think about that I have
experienced certainly some unjust suffering, not the level, that many have. Yes I have. But even
more than that, I've had the privilege of coming alongside many others. And many who are
facing a variety of different situations where they're suffering unjustly at the hands of another.
Jocelyn: Which is just so hard, so hard to walk that path of suffering with someone that you love.
Janet: Yes. And I don't know about you, but my first thought is how do I get them out of this?
Jocelyn: Yeah, definitely. Why, how can I get this to stop?
Janet: Yes. What do we have to do? Is there and that's. Natural, but God wants us to be
supernatural.
Jocelyn: He wants us to think bigger than that. Yeah.
Janet: Yeah. And then this passage surprised me because I would think if you do good, you can
expect to be blessed. Isn't that what we tell our children?
Jocelyn: Which is clearly in the Bible as well. You'll be blessed when you obey. Yes.
Janet: Yes. If you sin, you should expect to suffer.
Jocelyn: Yep.
Janet: Okay. And okay. I might go as far to say. There is some general suffering everybody's
going to face, but if you do good, it's going to end faster.
Jocelyn: Be good. So it gets done.
Janet: Yes, yes. But I don't think there's no credit to you for responding well to deserved
discipline. And it was funny when I read this, I was like, Oh, my word, I gave my kids a lot of
credit for that. Like if they deserved to be disciplined and they submitted to it without fighting.
Hey, man, that was. Party. I was like way to go. Way to submit to what you did deserve.
Jocelyn: What you had coming.
Janet: Yeah. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but God's saying, I don't think
that that's actually super amazing. Like you should be disciplined for that. But when you don't
deserve it and you suffer. That pleases God. And my brain goes.
Jocelyn: That is just like, wow. What? Yeah.
Janet: So I do think that if possible, it's really helpful to think about that Biblically and learn this
ahead of time.
Jocelyn: Definitely. So you're prepared.
Janet: Yeah. Once you're in this situation, it's hard to think clearly, but at those times we benefit
from others around us reminding us of truth.
Jocelyn: Definitely. Yeah.
Janet: So what truth do we have to remember in those moments? First back to the last two
episodes. God really is a God of hesed and a friend of mine just said this quote a few weeks ago
and I loved it. "God is a God of affectionate sovereignty."
Jocelyn: I love that. When you shared that with me, I just couldn't stop thinking about it. It's so
helpful. Not just control. He's in good control.
Janet: Yes. And that makes all the difference.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: Because I think most of us. Who have any knowledge of Scripture or even have lived life
very long. We're aware we're not in control. And many of us realize God is. He's got complete
control over everything, but that's still scary. If I don't understand, He does that with a heart of
affection for me. It's an affectionate sovereignty. I have to be growing and understanding that.
Hang out in Romans 8. Listen to the last episode for ways to grow in understanding that.
Jocelyn: Learning that was really helpful last year like going into the winter, I knew we were
going to go into a second winter of Covid. And I was having a little moment in the kitchen and
my friend said we need to talk. So she called me real quick and just reminded me, like, it's not
just that God is in control. It's that He's in good control. And you can't just trust His control. You
can trust His goodness inside of that control so helpful.
Janet: It just reorients. I may, I still don't understand, but that truth helps. It makes me think
about, we've talked about the Gospel Primer and probably almost every episode, but the one that
talks about, perspective and trial says this, and I love the way he phrases that "God requires all
trials to bend to His gospel purposes for me." And that includes unjust suffering, which is
absolutely a specific kind of trial. He's up to something good.
Jocelyn: That's very heavy. That's very profound that He requires trials to bend to His gospel
purposes. So, so deep but so important.
Janet: Yes. Yes. And to be able to, by faith, look at my unjust suffering and say He's up to
something good.
Jocelyn: In the middle of something that feels so bad.
Janet: Right. And is wrong. Like, no, one's trying to minimize that is unjust.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: How do we deal with that? Well, we go on in our passage. So right after he has said, it's a
gracious thing in the sight of God. If you do good and suffer, he says "for", so he tells me why
"for to this you've been called," okay. You called me to suffer for doing good. Why? Again,
"because Christ also suffered for you leaving you an example so that you might follow in His
steps." So I'm beginning to get, okay. Something about Christ's willingness to unjustly suffer for
me, has to impact how I see this. Then I have to go back to our first episode when Jocelyn talked
us through our purpose, the creation mandate. Why are we here? We are here to represent God.
We are the visible representatives of the invisible God to all of the world. Well, who represented
Him fully? Hebrews 1:3 says Jesus is the exact representation of God. So now, we don't just have
represent God, we have more specifically, same thing, but more specifically be conformed to the
image of Christ in Romans 8:29. Same thing. Be conformed to look like Christ.
Jocelyn: I was so confused early on when I first started coming to our church 20 years ago,
everyone was always saying, be more like Christ, be more like God. And I was like, dude isn't
one, Jesus enough.
Janet: Like we're ever going to be Him any way.
Jocelyn: Why are we all working so hard to be like Him? And it took a couple of years of
understanding it, but like, why do we need to copy Him? Why does everyone care that we're
being like Jesus? That's why, because we were created to represent God and the one human, the
God man, the Son of Man who has ever actually done it is Jesus. So we can look at Him as our
example, see how He did it. And then allow these trials to conform us more and more into His
image, like Romans 8:28-29 say, these trials are squeezing us to force us to function more like
Jesus. And the reason why that is important is because that's what all humans were made to do to
represent God accurately.
Janet: I think it's so great because we use these phrases.
Jocelyn: Without thinking.
Janet: And we don't even think about the fact that others are going.
Jocelyn: What in the world? Like you might've been a Christian for 20 years, but I just became
one. I have no idea what language you're speaking.
Janet: Right. And be like Jesus. Be like Jesus. And I just think that's hysterical. Why? There's
already a Jesus?
Jocelyn: And I just thought it was so weird. Yeah.
Janet: So why do we want to be like Jesus? Because He did what we were called to do. And then
we have His spirit to help us to do that. And when we are looking more and more like Jesus, not
only does it, please God, which it absolutely does. It's living out what we were designed for all
along. So it's the most satisfying way for us. That's what I was designed for. That is my purpose.
Jocelyn: It's hard to wrap your mind around the fact that that comes through trials, especially
through the trials that come with unjust suffering, which are so unjust. That person is doing
wrong, but God is using it to do right in my life.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: It's a not human way of thinking.
Janet: Yes. And so if I think, okay, if I'm going to be like, Jesus, what was He like in this respect?
Well, all of His suffering was unjust. First Peter 3:18 says this "for Christ also suffered once for
sins, the, just for the unjust." But why? "That He might bring us to God being put to death in the
flesh, but made alive in the spirit." And when I began to get a handle on. Okay. All right. All of
His suffering was unjust. And He chose it because I needed Him to do it.
Jocelyn: That was really a very deep week of pondering. The first time I understood that every
single piece of Jesus' suffering, every one of them, was completely unjust. Every suffering that
He endured on the earth was an injustice. It really helped me to, look at Him as a better example
of how to suffer in the middle of hard stuff. I'd never really thought about that before that all
suffering that Jesus endured was unjust.
Janet: Yes. Yes. And that was something honestly that my husband had to help me with. And I'll
share that example a little later in order to help me to love someone. So first Peter, 2:22 we keep
going on. So we've already seen that we want to follow in His steps. So now God's going to show
us what His steps were. "He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in His mouth." Quite
frankly, I'm already not Jesus. So I'll never be able to say all of my suffering was unjust, no
matter how unjust some of my suffering is, but He could. "When He was reviled, he did not
revile in return." I'm already not like Jesus.
Jocelyn: Add one more way.
Janet: "When He suffered, He didn't threaten, but continued in trusting Himself to Him who
judges justly." There's my example. That's what He did. And then we go on, "He Himself bore
our sins in His body, on the tree." Again, why? "That we might die to sin and live to
righteousness." Crazy. And what did that do for us? "By His wounds you have been healed" for
you, Janet "were straying like sheep," but now I've returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of my
soul only because Jesus suffered unjustly. And how did He do it? Entrusting Himself to God.
Why did He do it? Hesed. He loves me. He desired that I not stray and return to Him. And His
unjust suffering is what healed me and caused me to return to my Shepherd. And I think again,
and I think we've mentioned this in the past. I picture Him on the cross. Doing just this. Suffering
unjustly because I needed it. And then picture people just like me mocking Him while He did it.
Jocelyn: And still He did it.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: He finished it. He did the job.
Janet: Let's talk about one reason and the next 4 million of why we're glad I'm not the savior.
Cause I so would've come down. I'd have so come down to say, can I show you who I am? How
dare you talk to me that way. Again, I don't have the same kind of love.
Jocelyn: Thankfully you're not our Christ.
Janet: So our willingness to entrust ourselves to the Father when we're suffering unjustly is a
sweet smelling aroma to our Father. It pleases Him. So, it doesn't please God, because He enjoys
our pain.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: It pleases God, because it looks just like Jesus. And I have to say. We know we want to be,
we say anyway, after we understand why we're supposed to look like Him, we say.
Jocelyn: Once we get on board.
Janet: Yeah. I want to look like Jesus. I want to be more like Jesus. But I think what we really
mean is I want to follow Biblical principles. So my life's easier.
Jocelyn: Yes. Which to be fair, if you follow Biblical principles, their life probably will be easier,
but that's not why we do it.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: That’s not the reason.
Janet: If I follow Biblical principles of finances, I'm probably not going to be in as much debt.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: But I still could lose my job.
Jocelyn: Right. And you could still have financial repercussions that you never asked for.
Janet: Unjust suffering.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: And so that comes to the surface. That that's really not what we're wanting, but when I
want really to look like Jesus, I should expect that part of it would include unjust suffering since
He was the suffering servant.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: So when this first was something that I really had to deal with on a personal level is when
I was walking with a precious friend of mine who was suffering because of somebody else's
sinful choices and behavior.
Jocelyn: So hard.
Janet: And yes, it's not the first time that it happened, but this one was close. And I remember
coming home after talking with her and telling her what I still believe is true. How do we honor
the Lord? We're responsible for ours. We trust the Lord. He cares. All of those things. I came
home and I said to Brent, I'm so mad right now. I am so mad. I know what I said is true. I know
that. I don't want to encourage her bitterness. I get that, but I felt like Asaph in Psalm 73, when
he said, "if I spoke the things that were in my heart, I would have betrayed You to a generation".
I was so mad and I said to him, I'm getting bitter. Like, it's not even happening to me.
Jocelyn: It's not your thing.
Janet: And I am getting so bitter. It's an I, and here are my words. I remember this. And I
remember he was sitting kind of like you remember when you heard your thing in Exodus.
Jocelyn: Life changing moments. Yeah.
Janet: He was sitting in this chair in the living room and I looked at him and I said, it's not fair.
This other individual is the one sinning so agregiously. And my precious friend is the one
suffering. That is not fair. And I still remember him looking at me and saying, this is her moment
to look the most like Jesus. And I'm like, I know, I mean, we want to look like Jesus. And he
goes, no, think with me. And that's when he looked at me and said, all of His suffering was
always, always, always unjust. All of it. So if this precious friend will choose to entrust herself to
God in the middle of this. This is her moment to shine. She has the opportunity to look more like
Jesus than some other people ever will.
Jocelyn: Yeah. That at any other time in her life possibly.
Janet: That's right. This is her platform. This is her time to say I can entrust the Father. Look at
me as I look like Jesus. Not because yay we saw God do immediate justice.
Jocelyn: Yep.
Janet: But because I chose to entrust myself.
Jocelyn: Which requires such a level of humility to say like, okay, I'm getting nothing out of this
other than the opportunity to shine like Christ in this moment, which is good for our hearts.
Janet: Absolutely.
Jocelyn: We don't want to look like Jesus because it brings attention to us. We want to live like
Christ and He, in moments of suffering, did it perfectly.
Janet: Yes. And I think, you know, it reveals in my heart, the things that, battle for the throne of
wanting to look like Jesus.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: I want to look good.
Jocelyn: Yes. At the same time, I want you to think highly of me while I look like Jesus. Look.
Look at both of us. We're doing good.
Janet: Yes. Yes. And I, okay. And what I realized when he said that to me, it really was, you
know, cliche, a light bulb moment. Like oh, my word, like everything in me is thinking what is
just so that she doesn't have to keep hurting like this? How do we, get leadership to do whatever
I think they need to do so that? How do I make this person stop sinning?
Jocelyn: Which are all still important things to think through, but the motivation isn't so that it
can stop being hard for her, the motivation and those situations is because we want to obey the
Lord and what is righteous.
Janet: And what is righteous.
Jocelyn: We want to do that and we want to promote justice. So we're not saying not promote
justice. We're saying in moments of injustice, when suffering is a result of that, we give that
person the courage to handle it.
Janet: Yes. And so that's when my job changed in my mind and it really didn't change a lot of
what I did. And because I already knew I had to give truth that's what I'd been doing, but in my
mind it was like, okay, it is not my job to help her endure till we can get it to go away.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: It's not my job to take it away. It's my job, if I really want to be a blessing to her, is to help
her do it well. And part of what she needed was how can I love the other person and encourage
their righteousness. So, yes, I want their righteousness, but how can I. And my job was to lock
arms with her and say, Okay.
Jocelyn: Yep.
Janet: I can't take it away and it's not my job to take it away and cannot
Jocelyn: That's not our goal.
Janet: And to go even further, if I could, I would mess up something better. If it was best that it
be taken away, be gone.
Jocelyn: It would have been already done. Yeah.
Janet: Can I agree with God that He's right and I'm wrong for wanting, for trying to make it be
gone? Wanting sin to be gone is good, but can I agree with God? This is better. And then can I
say to her. As much as lies within me, you're not going to do it alone. And I'm going to keep
pointing you back and I'm going to help you walk it, but I'm going to stop in my soul clamoring
after how do I make it go away?
Jocelyn: I think that's another one of those words that Christians throw around a little bit and
don't think about is the word encouragement.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: Encouragement means you are bestowing that person with the courage that they need to
do that hard thing.
Janet: You're in-couraging.
Jocelyn: Yes. You're giving them the courage. And often I think sometimes, when we're
encouraging someone who is suffering, we're just trying to like, make them feel better and, you
know, give them happy words to think about. So in the middle of that kind of a battle of
suffering, especially unjust suffering, what that person needs is the courage to do that suffering
without buckling out in sin. Without saying, Oh, it's too much. Or I shouldn't have to go through
this. Or like, this is not right. So we're giving them.
Janet: Or when she does that, helping her be able to repent quick.
Jocelyn: Totally.
Janet: The encouragement to let's come back to the truth.
Jocelyn: The encouragement is helping that person have the courage to do that hard thing to
suffer like Christ without trying to get out of it until God completes the mission.
Janet: Yes. And to think and part of what she has to do to honor the Lord in this is to choose how
can she encourage the one sinning against her? And if we use the weak way that we say
encourage that just seems like cruel. Like how do I go, "way to go. You're sinning against me.
That's okay. You go."
Jocelyn: Thanks for helping me grow.
Janet: Yeah. But if she's going to be encouraging, she wants to be giving that person the courage
to repent. That's how she encourages someone sinning against her. How can I give them the
courage to repent?
Jocelyn: Which is so hard and one reason why it's so important for us to have godly friends that
walk alongside us in suffering, because dude, that's difficult and takes a lot of wisdom. You have
to think through a lot of hard stuff.
Janet: And while your mind is reeling with what's going on in you, so. Encouraging includes
confronting. It includes a lot of hard things just as Jesus did. And it means she has a lot of hard
work to do, and it's not fair, but it is like Jesus. It really forces me to see areas of my heart that
maybe I wasn't wanting just to look like Jesus. Maybe I just want to not suffer.
Jocelyn: It's really hard when you think about some of the parts about being a believer, following
Jesus. When we cheapen the message of the gospel, it's sometimes as a get out of hell quick card
or easy card. And that's not what Jesus said, being His disciple was. He said it was dying to
yourself. He said it was your own funeral that you're attending at your salvation. And so I think
that's part of how we be a godly friend is full disclosure. When I follow Jesus, it means doing it
His way. Not just doing it His way so that I have a better life or an easier life or less bad
consequences, because we can do obedience by the book and God gets to decide what the
context looks like. He decides what suffering is best for us to walk through. And full disclosure
says we take it as a gift from His good hand, that growing process in the middle of any
circumstance that He allows.
Janet: And then we have to, you know, while we don't want to cheapen the message. And while
we want to make sure that we understand you're choosing to give up management of your life to
another, whose goal is what's best for you, but best does equal easy.
Jocelyn: It doesn't equal easy. Definitely not.
Janet: And then here's the other reality that though. Whether you follow Jesus or not, you're
going to suffer. You don't get to choose. And I think that's so interesting. Cause sometimes it's
like, I don't know if I want to follow Jesus, cause it will be hard. And I'm like, well, you can do
hard with Jesus or hard without Jesus, but you're going to do hard.
Jocelyn: Yup.
Janet: Like I remember a friend of mine. She was not a believer and was going through some
incredibly unjust suffering in her own life. And it was very hard and she said, How do you
believe that God is good when these things are happening? It was really hard. And I can't
remember if I said it or if I just heard someone standing next to me say it. It's been too many
years ago, but the comment was, I have no idea how you're going to do it without knowing God.
Like you're already doing it.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: You either do it without God, or you do it with the help of God and knowing the things
that we have.
Jocelyn: And that's expecting suffering and being ready for it is wise because God doesn't say,
for example, next episode, we're going to be looking at James. God doesn't say if on the off
chance you have to go through suffering. He says, when you go through suffering, it is a absolute
guarantee that it's going to happen. And like you said, there's going to be suffering. In some
cases, you know, our choices contribute to what kind of suffering we go through, but it can't be
some shocking, Oh my goodness, what is happening to me? I decided to follow Jesus and it
wasn't supposed to feel this way. Suffering is part of the experience of believers on earth.
Janet: Yep. I remember, several years ago I was talking with a international student that we kind
of adopted through Purdue. And I don't even remember how the subject came up, but we were
talking about God and she was not a believer and she's struggling with sovereignty and things
that are a big deal. And she said, and she was struggling with why believers believe so strongly
that abortion is always wrong. Okay. Because it's unloving. So she said to me, she was two
different examples. She's like picture a very poor country and you're pregnant with like your
eighth child and you can't even feed the ones you have. How is it loving to bring another child
into that? And what if someone is raped? And now you're saying on top of the pain of rape, now
you have to carry this child. So my answer was so let's think about either of those, but
specifically let's talk about the rape one. I said, so you're saying to me what's easier for her
because she's already been through something like this. And she said, yes. And I said, I would
say to you, easy is off the table. There is no easy, anymore. Easy was not being raped. So she has
been raped. Now it's do you do the hard of taking a life and living with that, or do you do the
hard of having to work through what happened to you and not ignore it by bringing a another life
into the world, but to believe that there's actually an easy option.
Jocelyn: Yeah. That went out the window.
Janet: Is ridiculous. There is not an easy option, but we are so. There has to be. What is easy.
Jocelyn: Which really shows don't you think that really shows so many peoples, including ours,
our heart motivations is we are after easy. We're after the least amount of pain. We're after, you
know, floating through life and floating through life doesn't make us more like Jesus. Those easy
answers don't conform us to Christ, who is doing the job of representing God well.
Janet: Yes. And again, we're not saying don't work toward justice because that would be to
ignore a lot of scripture. God is a just God, but what's amazing about our God is he makes even
injustice bow to His good and gracious purposes.
Jocelyn: Which is so amazing about God, because I cannot wrap my brain around how that's
possible. That God would take a sinful situation and bring good out of it. It blows my mind on
several levels, but that's one reason why I'm glad I'm not God. I can trust that big, big God who's
capable of doing that without me understanding how exactly that's going to happen. I trust the
character of God and that it will happen without me micromanaging every step along the way.
Janet: I don't have to understand it to believe it, but we also got to see it. What's the biggest
injustice that's ever happened on the planet. How about murdering the one who never, ever, ever,
ever, ever, ever sinned?
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: And we see how that injustice was used for the greatest blessing ever known to mankind.
The only hope we'll ever have. And to think we talked about John 13 in a previous episode, in
that passage Christ referred to His crucifixion as His hour of glory.
Jocelyn: It's just shocking.
Janet: I know. His glory, so another phrase that, we use that we don't always understand, and I
still remember that
Jocelyn: A Christian word.
Janet: College girl saying to me, I don't understand what you're telling me I need to glorify God.
What does that even mean? And I'm like, you know, show Him more. And so I had to study it,
but to think His Glory, his importance, His weightiness shown the most clearly in choosing to be
murdered. In choosing to love to His own hurt while they mocked Him. The worst injustice of all
of time and space was His moment of showing His glory because it showed the aspect of His
character that is the most glorious. It's, quite frankly, not shocking He can raise from the dead.
It's amazing. It's not really shocking. Here's what's shocking. That kind of love.
Jocelyn: Yeah. I don't even like people to think bad about me. Much less be sacrificing my life
while they're mocking me out loud and torturing me.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And that showed how different and how magnificent He is. That was His moment of
glory. His suffering in that way, completely changes how I should look at suffering. You know,
but I do think all of us, more than we know, have been affected by the prosperity gospel.
Jocelyn: Oh, tragically. I agree.
Janet: And I think. At least, most people that I'm around would not say they believe in the
prosperity gospel. I don't believe that I should send money to a faith healer on TV, and then I can
retire because all the money's going to come floating in. I'm not going to use God like that. I
don't put in a quarter to the God vending machine and pull out a dollar. And yet if I'm suffering,
why do I say, am I doing something wrong? Now, I might be being disciplined. So I shouldn't
say it's okay to look at, but if I am honoring God and I just spoke with a sweet friend just
recently and who worked through that, but said one of my thoughts and it was just a unjust
suffering situation. And she said we started asking so like, is there are we doing something
wrong? Why is this happening to us? Is there something we need to fix? And they were both
like, but we're really trying to grow. We don't know what. It's like. Okay. Somewhere in there.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: If I have God's favor, I will prosper.
Jocelyn: And you can't. It's good for you to think about because so many of us think of the
gospel as just being a pragmatic solution, like I'm going to do this, you know, believing in Jesus,
because it works. I'm going to obey Jesus because it works.
Janet: And His principles do work.
Jocelyn: His principles do work, but I don't do it because that's my ultimate motivation. My
ultimate motivation is because I want to live righteously. I want to live according to God's
standards of what is right and good. Not just because right in good happens to work most of the
time. In this situation, people are living right, and good, and someone is still sinning against them
and they're bearing the consequences instead of that person. In a way that we think is just.
Janet: And I've had somebody say to me recently, How do I get there? Like, how do I want to
please God, even when it's not giving me anything. And I think it goes back to our last episode.
When you understand you've been loved like that.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: So how would growing to actually believe that God loves me the way He says He loves
me. How could that not engender in me I want to look like Him.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: I want. I want to honor you.
Jocelyn: So loyal.
Janet: I want this. Fierce loyalty. I come to the end of Psalm 139 that's what I see in David.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: A fierce loyalty to the God who loves him like that. So that's how we're going to get there.
Christ perfectly pleased His father and suffered more than anyone else. If that doesn't put like the
death knell to the prosperity gospel, what else will. So I am not expected to enjoy pain. I'm not
expected to try to suffer.
Jocelyn: We're not asking for sadistic
Janet: Exactly.
Jocelyn: Yeah. Experiences.
Janet: But when I make my goal to avoid suffering, then I have the wrong goal. And when I do
suffer and it's unjust, that's my moment to shine. So. What about justice?
Jocelyn: Good question. We have to think about that.
Janet: Yes. So, and then we hear Romans 12:14 "Bless those who persecute you bless and do not
curse them." Oh, here we go again. So now I'm being told again, just be okay with being treated
wrong, but verse 19 in that same chapter says again, "Beloved, never avenge yourself." Got it.
"But leave it to the wrath of God for it is written. 'Vengeance is mine. I will repay,' says the
Lord," do I really understand that nobody gets away with any sin? Brent said that to me that day
too, because I said, it's unfair. It's like this other individual is getting away with it. And she's the
one paying. From her perspective way to look like Jesus. And then he looked at me and he said,
nobody gets away with sin. And I'm like, well, they are. Well, and he said to me, every, every sin
either they will repent and Jesus will be beaten for it, or they're going to pay for it. Every sin is
paid for. There is no, we have a just God.
Jocelyn: Which is one of the ways to have the courage we need to walk through suffering like
this. Because it's easy to think like, Oh, this is never going to be held in account.
Janet: Yes.
Jocelyn: No one's ever going to answer.
Janet: And we don't want that.
Jocelyn: Right. It's raw. I mean, God gives us a sense of justice inside of our souls. It's right to
want justice to happen, but it's easy to be afraid that it never will. And so that really gives
courage in the middle of suffering that no one's going to get away with sin. No one.
Janet: I don't have to try to make them pay.
Jocelyn: Either Jesus will have paid for it or that person will eternally.
Janet: Yeah. And be sobered by that. You know, when I am angry at someone's sin, either against
me or unjustly against somebody else, that can motivate me to actually be sobered about what
might happen to them. And it could allow me the courage to encourage them toward
righteousness.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: That can, instead of trusting my own response to unjust suffering and what I think ought to
happen to them, I'm going to start praying for the one causing me to suffer. That's supernatural.
How do you pray for the one causing your pain?
Jocelyn: That's hard. Yeah.
Janet: In part, by knowing if they don't repent
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: What's coming is unimaginable.
Jocelyn: Way worse than your suffering that you're walking through at that moment.
Janet: Make room for the wrath of God. I just finished reading the book Unpacking Forgiveness
with someone that I was working through it with Chris Bronze wrote that and he talks about not
minimizing unjust treatment. Which I appreciate when we're talking about forgiveness.
Jocelyn: Yeah, that's important.
Janet: It's not. Forgive them. Okay. This is a true statement. What they did to you is nothing
compared to what I've done to God. And we see in Scripture that we need to have that mentality.
But even that doesn't mean what they did to use no big deal.
Jocelyn: Was nothing. Yeah.
Janet: And I don't need to try to. I can forgive cause not a big deal. I can forgive because.
Jocelyn: Sin is a big deal.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: It's huge. And it injures people.
Janet: And if I try to minimize it, I'll just become bitter.
Jocelyn: True.
Janet: That's not forgiveness.
Jocelyn: That's true.
Janet: So he talks about that. If you're struggling with bitterness because of your unjust suffering,
which I was struggling with bitterness and wasn't even my suffering. This book is very, very
helpful. And at the end, he's talking about the story of Joseph, which many of us have heard. And
Joseph's supernatural example of responding to unjust suffering. And he says this, "maybe what
stands out most is how Joseph defeated bitterness. He believed deeply in the providence of God,
even though his brothers intended to harm him." That's true. And he didn't say not a big deal,
guys. You didn't know what you were doing. They knew.
Jocelyn: God was going to use it to say, save all the people of the world.
Janet: No big deal.
Jocelyn: No big deal. You're suffering doesn't matter.
Janet: "But he knew that his God is so powerful and in control." And I'm going to say
affectionate control "that He can weave even the threads of other's evil intentions into the
glorious tapestry of His plan for His people." I love that.
Jocelyn: Which is one reason why it's so important to have a long view of life. Like some of
those things don't become understood until we have a little time to ponder, or maybe not even
until eternity itself.
Janet: Right. But I can know make room for the wrath of God. So what about suffering that isn't
because someone has sinned against me wrongly, but it's also not because I did it. I'm not
suffering because I got drunk and had a car accident.
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: And even there grace, grace, grace. But what about when you were just trying to get home
from work and they were drunk and now you've lost an arm?
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: How do I deal with the suffering that's I want to call it almost indirect? Illnesses, diseases,
birth defects, car accidents, pandemics, all of those things that affect us. And, you know, we joke
about the pandemic, but think about the people who've lost their livelihood.
Jocelyn: Yeah. Or their loved ones.
Janet: Like this is a big deal.
Jocelyn: It's not nothing.
Janet: Yes. So again, I would say we have to remember the character and hesed of God. Again,
He loves us better than we love ourselves. Do I believe that? Do I believe that? One of the Valley
of Vision prayers that always amazes me. I don't have it in front of me, but he says, "if you gave
me the right to make any decisions in my life, I would give it back to you because I could make a
mistake."
Jocelyn: Oh, that's beautiful.
Janet: And I have to, every time I pray that go. I don't know what I would do.
Jocelyn: Do I really really believe that?
Janet: If God would allow me,
Jocelyn: Yeah. I have a feeling. Let's jump on it.
Janet: I know. I know. Am I wise enough?
Jocelyn: I'm all over that.
Janet: Am I wise enough to know I would do it wrong? Cause I'm pretty sure I know what ought
to happen. So.
Jocelyn: I'm pretty confident a lot of times I know I shouldn't be.
Janet: So I have to remember He loves me better than I love me. If I knew everything he knew, I
would agree with Him that it's the wisest, best decision.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: He knows what is best for my soul. He knows how this natural suffering can actually be a
protection for my soul. He knows what would destroy my soul. And He protects me from it in
ways I can't. In John 9, which we read earlier, "but that the works of God might be displayed in
him."
Jocelyn: Yeah. It's just so helpful to know that one day it will make sense.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: Probably not on earth, maybe a little bit on earth, but in eternity, we're going to have the
privilege to see how what God asked us to walk through was doing a million things at the same
time, which is such a huge concept. Like how can my friend suffering this injury from her cancer
treatment? How is that making any difference other than forcing her to live a life that she never
asked for? And one day, we're going to see how that path flipped over on its head was intricately
involved in other people's salvation, other people's sanctification, her own sanctification. It's nice
to know that we will one day know, and we don't have to shake our fist that we don't get to know
now.
Janet: And I think I've learned this about me because my mind, I have to make choices. Like I
can't focus on what's best for you, Jocelyn, at the same time that I'm focusing on what's best for
my husband. I have to choose.
Jocelyn: Yeah. It's too much.
Janet: And I'm finite. So in my mind, sometimes the hard one for me is thinking of your friend
with cancer. Okay. So maybe I can get my mind around how He is growing her to look more like
Jesus. But what about her poor kids? Her kids didn't do anything. And now they have a mom
who's been sick or a mom who if it had not gone the direction it did had died, and praise the Lord
that's not what happened, but it happens to some. And then I have to remember there's no
collateral damage with God.
Jocelyn: Isn't that it's just unbelievable.
Janet: This is what's best for her kids.
Jocelyn: And her husband and her extended family and every single one of us who's watching
her suffer.
Janet: Yes. And I think it's because I can't do that. I don't know. I can't fathom it. And so I feel
like that can't be true, but it is true. There's no collateral damage with God. So since I know that
about God, Can I trust Him that this is the best way for me when I'm suffering with illness or
whatever and can I trust Him that it's the best way for my loved one to display His character?
And I have to tell you on a personal level, trusting God's amazing hesed for your loved one,
suffering can be even harder. So I'll just share. My daughter's name is Karis, so I have her
permission to share this. She has battled with chronic pain, has a connective tissue disorder that
I now know I have to. But very unkind of me. I gave it to her and she has a far worse. So, she's
battled chronic pain since she was nine. And, I'm still wrapping my mind around. How do I trust
God with that and not make it my goal that it go away?
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: If there's any way. Like I can remember saying to Brent what does it look like to just be
faithful to look for answers, but not let that consume me, because it naturally does. And just
recently, honestly, because we did this sessions on hesed and I was thinking about it more and
then I'm in church and we're singing songs about trusting God's love. I started sobbing in church
a couple of weeks ago, and my husband's like, I'll start crying now. My husband's like. Um,
something going on. I'm like, I can trust God's love. Not just for me. I can trust God's love for
my daughter.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: What have I prayed for for her? Since I even knew she had this, what have I prayed for for
both of my children, that they would have a heart that loves God and loves others. We've talked
about that. We talked about. We chose to homeschool for many years. And one of our goals was
if our kids leave our home academically prepared to excel, but they don't love Jesus.
Jocelyn: What was the point?
Janet: Exactly.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: So that has to inform all of our decisions. And I know I can't make them love God, but I
want to provide an environment that focus on be Einstein.
Jocelyn: You can set the environment. Yeah.
Janet: So, that's been our prayers that they would love God and love others. And I have battled
what God has allowed into her life. , I don't like that when she's in high school and they have an
overnighter at church, we have to talk about the fact that is that smart for you. You're going to
pay for that for days. You can't sleep on the floor. Like anyone else who's 13 can sleep on the
floor. With her chronic pain, she really can't. I don't like that I have to think about that. I don't
like that she's involved in her college ministry and while they're all playing volleyball, she keeps
score and watches because she can't play. I don't like that she's the DJ at the dance because she
can't do the square dancing without paying for it forever. I don't like that. And it doesn't seem
very loving. And it was probably a couple of years ago as Karis and I were talking about it. I
don't think it was in the same conversation, but probably in part, because my clamoring, after not
wanting her to be in pain actually resulted in my being very angry with her. Because if she didn't
do everything that I thought she could do to get out of pain, I'm gonna be mad. And I can
remember asking her, well, are you doing whatever it was? And she was like, Oh, I haven't been
doing that. And I yelled at her, like, it was like, Oh, we're doing all these things, you know? And
then I just started sobbing and I don't think she'd really ever seen me cry up to that point because
my job was to help her love Jesus in it and to trust God and to look stoic and probably that wasn't
my job, but that's what I thought my job was and I remember saying to her, I would take this
from you if I could. I would rather be in paint than watch you be in pain. So making it, my goal
that she'd be out of pain, ended up hurting my relationship with my daughter. Cause now I'm
yelling at her. And then I remember when we were in a better place, just talking about it. Her
saying to me, you know, mom, my life has been so easy in so many ways that if I didn't have
chronic pain, I don't know if I would know that I need God. And I was like, and I have been
fighting God as He was answering my prayer as He's doing what was best for my daughter's
soul. I'm mad.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: That's hard can I trust God that He loves her better than I do? Cause I would have made
this never have happened. And if it did happen, I'd taken it away and I, I would have taken it. I
would've done whatever that freaky Friday thing is where you get to switch bodies with
somebody and I'd taken her body. Like I would have done that and I would have maybe hurt her
soul, which I don't what.
Jocelyn: Which was your whole goal all along that she love the Lord.
Janet: So while I begged him to remove it, I picture God not snarky because He understands my
heart saying, honey, if you only know what I know, I'm actually loving Karis better than you are
with your prayer, but He knows I'm limited. I know He's not mad at me for praying it, but He
gets what I don't. So I still want it to be removed. And I'm going to keep praying. God is a God
who heals. And when I have a desire, He wants me to come to Him with, but I need to come with
an open hand.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: I need to come. And I'm growing, which is why I was crying a few weeks ago at church.
I'm just growing to trust Him that I can. I can hold that desire with an open hand and then I can
rejoice that He loves her better than I do, because it's not just that, that hesed love is true in how
He deals with me. It's true in how He deals with someone I love more than I can imagine anyone
loving more.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And I know that the works of God can be displayed in her better because of the pain that
He's allowed. So just on a more personal level, I'm just traveling to, but God's hesed really is the
answer. So. Oh, my makeup's coming off glad they can't see that.
Jocelyn: And God loves our children so much that He, if there was anything else that He could
have done to help them love Him, He would have chosen that.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: And that's one of the reasons that we can rest comfortably in suffering is that if there
was a different way, God would have chosen. So because He didn't, we can rest and confidence
that this is the best way. And His goal for me is to love Him more deeply and to be confident in
His process, which is extraordinarily painful.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah. And it's so true. And then to think that my emotion for how much I love her.
He is my daddy. That's how He is with us. That's so I can understand His love a little better when
I do that. So, I'm going to read a quote because it goes right along with what you just said. From
the book A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23. It's talking about this verse, "even though I walk
through the Valley of the shadow of death, I will not fear" and thinking about the heart of my
Shepherd. This was written by a man who was literally a shepherd of flocks, and he says this. "
As with ordinary sheep management. So with God's people, one only gains higher ground by
climbing up through the valleys. The best route to the top is always along these valleys again and
again, I remind myself, Oh God, this seems terribly tough, but I know for a fact that in the end it
will prove to be the easiest and gentlest way to get me onto higher ground."
Jocelyn: Blows my mind.
Janet: "Then when I thank Him for the difficult things, the dark days, I discovered that He is
there with me in my distress. At that point, my panic, my fear, my misgivings," for me, my
clamoring after making it go away, "give way to calm and quiet confidence in His care.
Somehow in a serene quiet way. I am assured all will turn out well for my best, because He's
with me in the Valley and things are under His control."
Jocelyn: What a beautiful conclusion.
Janet: And that changes everything. So how do we apply that?
Jocelyn: Yes. How do we?
Janet: I think the first one is going to be like we've said in the other episode, believe God.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: I need to trust His character and His heart.
Jocelyn: It's so hard to realize that believing is actually an action. Like we are commanded to
believe, not just act. And the first step that will allow a future actions to take place is that we
actually believe that it's true. That God really does love us. And that this was the best way. And
this was the gentlest way. And His character toward me is I can trust it.
Janet: Yes. I think we can also rejoice in Jesus's unjust suffering that healed us. You know, He
chose it. Most of us don't.
Jocelyn: Never, we would never choose our suffering.
Janet: I can't imagine choosing that level of hellish suffering because my soul needed it. So, we
can rejoice in that. I know I'm not Him, but I can rejoice that He did that. And I can think rightly.
Now I've got to part of believing, rejoicing, all of those things are things I'm doing in my mind.
So I'm going to have to take my thoughts captive.
Jocelyn: Yup.
Janet: Things like. I got to work on not having a bunch of self-pity. It's not fair. What did I do
wrong?
Jocelyn: Or that victim mentality, like, Oh, I'm always the one who has to suffer. It's my, you
know, it's just my lot in life. I am the black sheep who gets all the junk.
Janet: Yeah. Or I want to see that other person pay.
Jocelyn: Which is so hard.
Janet: I know, I remember as a teenager people treating me unkindly and my mom saying to me,
it will come back on them if they treat people that way. And here's what I said back to her, but I
want to see it. I mean that's where my heart was. It's not enough for me.
Jocelyn: I think it's often our hearts.
Janet: I want to see it. It's okay. I got to work on that thinking. So it might mean doing a thought
journal and learning my own thought patterns. I've asked several counselees for different
reasons, take one or two days at the most, otherwise it's a totally overwhelming assignment, and
write down what you're thinking throughout the day. And I'll tell them specifically when you
wake up, what are you thinking? Right it down. When you're brushing your teeth, because you
don't have to think.
Jocelyn: Yep.
Janet: Hopefully you kind of know how to do that?
Jocelyn: What do you think about when you're not thinking about
Janet: Yep.
Jocelyn: Thinking about anything else.
Janet: I'll give them specific examples when you're getting ready for the day, when you're
cooking supper, when you're getting your clothes on or getting your pajamas on to go to bed,
what are you thinking about? And I had one woman say to me, Oh, my word. No wonder I'm
depressed. I think that.
Jocelyn: Yes. I love thought journals. I think thought journals are so helpful because you have to
confront the fact that you are thinking about something and it's contributing to how the rest of
your day is going.
Janet: Even if your thought is I know this isn't true, but.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: ou're thinking about it.
Jocelyn: You still spent time pondering that.
Janet: Yeah. So that can be helpful. Giving biblical encouragement to others, which is what
Jocelyn's already said. It's giving them courage. So what are some ways people have given you
courage?
Jocelyn: Well, one of the ways that you have given me courage, which I've learned to then copy
with other people is you pray with me over text or email or something like. So when I say, Hey,
something hard is happening. Instead of saying, I'm praying for you. You actually write down the
prayer that you just prayed for me. It has been so helpful. Cause I can go back and reread it if I
need to. I've learned to do that with the people that I love. And so my friend who is struggling
through the injury with cancer, we're doing that together right now. Praying verse by verse
through James 1, one verse a day over this next 30 days, that's going to be probably the hardest
30 days of her life. Just praying like the specifics of that verse out loud to God on her behalf. So
I'm trying to use the courage that I have gained from Christ to give that suffering person courage
in their moment. When, you know, when it's hard, like when I was really struggling with
postpartum depression, I couldn't even remember how to walk upstairs. Like the last thing I was
thinking about was praying, I was trying to function. Yeah. So giving them courage through
prayers specifically in words that they can see.
Janet: Good. Another one I think is not minimizing it. We don't have to go. It's not that big a deal
it'll end soon. I'm sure you'll feel better.
Jocelyn: So rude when people do that. It is the biggest deal. It's like the biggest stinkin' deal of
my whole entire life.
Janet: And we have to make sure. Which when I had to learn the goal is not to make them feel
better.
Jocelyn: Yes.
Janet: So Biblical encouragement is not minimizing and it's not making it a goal to make them
feel better.
Jocelyn: Which weirdly when you do think about it, God's way you do end up feeling better
about it. You don't feel so bitter and disgusting and pointless and hopeless.
Janet: Because I'm looking at God's purpose in it, which is another way to encourage them, help
them shine, help them see the hope of what God's doing.
Jocelyn: Especially what your husband said to you about your friend who is suffering like this is
her moment. I've used that phrase several times since you and I have talked about this, like, okay,
this is the hardest valley that you've ever walked through. This valley of the shadow of death. It's
intense. This is the moment that God made you to shine His glory, like no other moment. So
shine, quit looking at the horribly difficult circumstances and say, these are the circumstances in
which God set me up to shine His love, His life, trust in His character. So that's what I'm going
to do. I'm going to, I'm going to shine.
Janet: And part of what you're doing when you do that is we're letting them know. They don't
have to do it alone.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: We're going to do it with them. We're not going to try to get them out of it, but we're going
to do it with them. That's another way to help.
Jocelyn: I think it changes how you walk through suffering with people. This is not praying for
God to get it over with quick so we can go back to our nice, easy life. This is saying like, it's
going to be hard and I'm not going to make you do it alone. I will be here to the extent that you
want me to want to. You know, shove yourself on someone that'd be awkward. But to the extent
that they need it, you will be the one that hops into the casket with them.
Janet: Yeah. Because my goal isn't to be away from hard things either.
Jocelyn: Right. I'm willing to walk through this with you because that's what would be loving for
you.
Janet: The one thing that I know with my friend who loved God already, it wasn't like she didn't
already know some truth, but when you're struggling, it's hard. And I told her once, I hate to just
give you truth, cause I'm sure you're like, I already know that. So we had this conversation and
she said, when I reach out to you, I need you to remind me of the truth I already know. So that
was really helpful. It was like, okay. So it's okay for me to say, God is working in the people
around you that are also suffering because of this, He's doing good to them. She knows that, but
in that moment,
Jocelyn: She needed it.
Janet: It's easy to forget. She just needs to be. So I would say remind people of the truth they
know.
Jocelyn: I had a friend who was suffering significantly from sins that other people had done to
her and she would text me and say, could I please have a reminder? And it just meant I need
something that is true to get my head out of what I'm thinking about right now.
Janet: So don't hesitate as the one helping them thinking they already know this, but if you do,
do what I did and say, I realized I would text this sometimes I know you already know this, but.
And then she finally said to me, you don't have to say that part.
Jocelyn: I don't need to disclaimer every time.
Janet: I felt like I needed to, until she told me I didn't have to. So, and remember that Jesus chose
it and He's there. How do we just wrap this up? We have a ton of resources. Normally we give
you two or three, we've got a ton and we may add more. They'll be in the show notes. There's so
much in the Word of God about this. So as we wrap up for today, can I just remind you again, if
you've been helped by this podcast, consider a donation. There's a donate button on the show
notes on our website. And again, a quick rating or a review. It'll only take a minute. The way
these podcasts work, they work on algorithms. We're just getting started. Not a lot of people
know us. If you want to make it easy for other people to find us, if this is encouraged you, take a
minute to at least put a quick rating on there so that we can.
Jocelyn: And share it.
Janet: Yes, but for next week, I hope you can join us again. I know it's been heavy today. Our
next episode, Jocelyn's going to help us think through not unjust suffering specifically, but we all
deal with trials in so many ways. What's some hope from the Scriptures on how we deal with that
as well. So hopefully we'll see you back for our next episode.
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you have questions or comments for us, you can email us at
joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible
Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to
receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money
for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their
website.
