When Words Matter Most — with Caroline Newheiser
Do you have a friend who is suffering? You may desperately long to encourage them, but it’s often hard to know where to begin... This episode's special guest, speaker and author Caroline Newheiser, joins Jocelyn and Janet to offer biblical wisdom on discerning what to say to loved ones who are worried, weary, wayward, or weeping - and how friendships based on Scripture can have a lasting impact through all seasons of life.
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Resources
Books
When Words Matter Most - Cheryl Marshall and Carolyn Newheiser
Website
Transcript:
Janet: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Alexandra: I just want to make it as totally simple and no brainer as possible for ladies to see that
the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of
my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to
inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as
women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy. Typically, I’ll be joined by either
Jocelyn or Alexandra, but for our first full episode listen as all three of us discuss the topic of
joy.
Janet: Hi, this is Janet, back again with more than my lovely co-host, but first we'll start with
Jocelyn.
Jocelyn: Hey there.
Janet: And we also have with us today, Caroline Newheiser, who has written a book with her
friend, Cheryl Marshall, that is called, When Words Matter Most, and we're going to be
interviewing her today because I believe that that's going to be an encouragement to those of you
who are listening. I'm excited to find out a little more about Caroline. But I also just wanted to let
our listeners know in a previous episode, we talked about Titus 2 relationships of older women
with younger women. I really believe this is a book that will take that same concept and then
flesh it out a little more and tell us a little more practically what that could look like.
Jocelyn: Yeah. I love that this is built on the skeleton of what Titus 2 relationship should be like.
This is kind of like the how-to, so if it's important to be involved in each other's life, here's some
super practical information about what it might look like to have those actual conversations.
Janet: So, Caroline, I didn't prepare you for this, but can you tell us first so that our listeners kind
of know who they're talking to, can you tell us a little bit about you?
Caroline: Yes, thank you for having me, first of all, and delighted to share a message, which I am
an older woman.
Janet: I know, at some point we just have to own it, don't we?
Caroline: Yeah. So my husband was a pastor for 26 years in Escondido, California. So that's
where I met Cheryl. Since then, I have moved and Jim was a pastor even before we moved to
Escondido. So it's maybe 40 years worth of experience, especially involved now in biblical
counseling where I work at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte. So I worked training
women to do counseling and that's really what my dream is been to help other women to learn
how to counsel and love on each other in discipleship relationships.
Janet: Oh, that's wonderful. So you're living your dream right now?
Jocelyn: Perfect.
Janet: Well, let me just ask you this. So there are a lot of books already on the market that we
could say: What do we think about relationships? How do we have conversations? What should
we do with our words? Your book does seem to be a little unique in the emphasis on scripture
and biblical truth. Why did you do that? Why is that such a strong focus?
Caroline: I love that question because you have the heart of our book. We want to speak truth in
love with grace. So speaking the truth in love is from Ephesians 4:15. It says,"Rather speaking
the truth in love. We are to grow up in every way into Him, who is the head into Christ". So our
desire is to help people grow in Christ and there are three reasons why I just throw these out to
you. One is our most important conversations are the ones about spiritual things. So Cheryl and I
have run across a lot of women who don't know how to bring conversations into spiritual truth.
Janet: Yes, I do hear that a lot.
Caroline: So, Romans 15:4 says, "Whatever was written in former days was written for our
instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the scriptures, we might
have hope". So to bring hope into the lives of those we care about is why we use scripture. But
not only that, those are the deepest relationships. They are the ones based on our faith, based on
our common truth, and the words that last are the words of scripture. They have eternal
consequence.
Janet: I love that. I love that you said hope because I really do think most women, even if they're
sinfully venting or just complaining, what they're longing for is hope.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: I don't know that most, maybe that's not fair, but I don't know that a lot of women would
equate hope with the scriptures. Though we should. We equate hope with, see, she understands
me, she gets me instead of realizing there's a better hope.
Jocelyn: Yeah. I loved it that you had a heavy emphasis on the scripture because as I was reading
your book, I just kept reminding myself scripture is alive. It always produces results. The more
that my conversation can be full of the scripture, the more that my conversation is going to
produce results, and the emphasis is not on me just giving good advice. Like you were saying
Janet, me understanding where you're coming from, but I'm listening carefully to the situation
and I'm delivering what Jesus said about that situation because that is the only way that results
are going to be promised. We can bank on it, if we're using scripture to help people.
Janet: Yeah.
Caroline: Amen.
Janet: I appreciate it. I'm going to read one of your quotes from page 21 that I just thought I
loved that the contrast here to the very top of the page. When it says, "When we're burdened with
worry, weariness sin or sorrow, we have a choice to build our lives either on the rock of God's
Word or the sand of human wisdom". I loved that picture of seeing rock or sand. When we think
about it that way, who would want to build on sand?
Jocelyn: And that choice, how we handle something has real consequences. If you handle it
biblically, you're going to have good results in working with that person through that problem.
You can just depend on it. It's so reliable.
Janet: Yeah.
Caroline: And even if we don't have the results we want, we know God's Word does not return
void.
Jocelyn: Exactly.
Caroline: Like you've already emphasized. So we don't want to think of it as a formula, but we
do know that we're following the Lord when we use scripture, that's what He's called us to do.
Janet: Yes, and He made us, so He kind of knows what's best. So I love that, that it's not just a
book about how do we have relationships to care about each other. It's how do we care for each
other best, which is with the Word.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: So that was beautiful. In your chapter on the gracious friend, I loved that. You began with
the character qualities we need to possess, which I thought that was really interesting that you
didn't start with saying if you're a gracious friend, here's what you would say. If you're a gracious
friend, here's what you would do. So why do you think that's important? Why did you start with
what the character of the friend needs to be like, rather than their words, when your book is about
words?
Caroline: Great question because we don't want to be a how-to book. We want to be a book that
transforms our own hearts so that everything else comes out naturally. Luke 6:45 says, "Out of
the heart, the mouth speaks". And when we have a mom asking question, how do I stop myself
from being an angry mom? Okay. You can give her a lot of how-tos, but it's her heart that has to
be changed to make the change in her words and her speech.
Janet: Can you just share with us, what were the qualities that you focused on and why did you
choose those qualities?
Caroline: Well, I've been a biblical counselor since 2010 and actually meeting with many, many
women. Cheryl is also interested in counseling, but I told her what are the most common
problems that I'm seeing. Women who are having weariness, they're worried, they're weeping,
and some of them are wayward, and need to hear Truth in a rebuking-kind-rebuking way.
Janet: That's great. So I was trying to remember what were the three character qualities that you
said the friend needed to have?
Caroline: Yes, that's on our page 70. In the first one we mentioned was she needs to be filled with
the Spirit. We're not just thinking of our own thoughts and what did we read about in Parade
magazine or what our experience shows, but it's our own thoughts that are based on scripture. So
that Spirit is going to enable us to have that heart change that creates the words that change us,
and have a positive effect. So we want to be women who live in and connected with the Spirit.
When we go into some of these hard conversations, we have to rely on the Holy Spirit to work.
Right?
Janet: Right, and He uses the Word. So we're back there, which is great. Yes.
Caroline: That's right, and not only that, but He glorifies the Son.
Janet: Yes.
Caroline: So our words, as we're speaking, want to bring glory back on to Christ. Back onto the
work of the Father, which is the Spirit's goal. I mean, that's what He does. The second thing is we
really thought about ourselves and we thought, what does a good friend look like? And it's a
friend who's humble. It's like my friend who invited me to a concert. My husband and I went to
the concert venue the other day. I said, there's nobody here. I don't even see the parking garage.
It's not open. She goes, oh, no, I must've told you the wrong day, but in the day of texts, I can
look back and see, no, she didn't get it wrong. It was my mistake, but she took it on herself. That
must have been my mistake that she showed us the wrong place in the wrong day. So I thought
here's a perfect example of a really humble, gracious friend. My heart was just warm towards her
and makes me love her even more.
Jocelyn: And just think about how irritating and divisive it is when you're trying to talk to
somebody and they assume they know what you're about to say, they assume why you said it,
they assume sometimes unkind things about you. You don't want to keep that conversation going
because you feel attacked by it. So when someone is a humble friend, it sets the tone for being
able to share at a deep level, which is where spiritual things are discussed.
Janet: Yeah. Well, true humility is going to mean that I understand how sinful I am, or at least
can I just say growing to understand, I still don't get how sinful I am, but I know more than I
used to. I'll know more hopefully next year.
Jocelyn: You are aware that you are sinful.
Janet: And at least I know that, and it goes to the core. I know that. If we know that, we're not
quite so shocked or self-righteous when somebody else is sharing. I completely agree. Humility
is huge.
Jocelyn: And it allows inside of these friendships, especially spiritual friendships, for the growth
to go both ways. So we are talking about mentoring younger people, in much of what this book is
talking about, but spiritual growth happens inside of relationships as the younger person shares
truth with the older person too. So humility would say there's probably things that are going to be
revealed in this conversation that will help me to see my area of need as well.
Janet: Yeah.
Jocelyn: It's not just me pointing you, so listen up.
Janet: Right. Right.
Caroline: I love that, Jocelyn. That was a great point. And I, when I meet with younger women, I
tell them, you've just said something that helps me in my relationships, or even in my future
counseling, you should hear their reaction. It's like, 'Oh, you know, a big sigh, oh really? You
said that about me?'
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: And also it's, I think, especially as Brent and Janet teach, they're very quick to point out
the ways that they fail at applying this thing themselves. That really gives the listeners a lot of
hope. Like, look, there's not some level where you'll reach perfection and you'll never struggle
with this anymore. We're all growing. We're all facing our areas of inadequacy and we're all
trying to apply it. None of us has reached this area where that's no longer necessary.
Janet: I'm glad that our failures could be such an encouragement.
Jocelyn: Oh, they are.
Caroline: So true. And the third point we made about a gracious friend is that she's loyal. She's
there when times are hard in times where you don't feel like you have a friend, so that gracious
friend will stick with you. For example, if a woman's going through a difficult marriage situation
or even ends up divorced that you can walk with her through this whole situation. Just be there
always, not be the fair-weather friend as we call it.
Jocelyn: Oh, that's a good point.
Janet: Yeah, and each of those qualities, and I know there are obviously are more, but each of
those qualities we see perfectly in how Christ is our friend. So I love that because when you're
saying, "loyal". Who's the friend?
Jocelyn: Who can be my loyal friend?
Janet: Yeah, that sticks with me when I'm slandering Him by not doing what I ought, and He still
sticks with me.
Jocelyn: I thought alot about Jesus when I was reading that chapter because He is the very best
friend. He's the perfect friend. He teaches me how to be a friend to the people that I love. So
Jesus doesn't just love me when I'm doing it right. He doesn't just love me when I'm never
making mistakes, and He doesn't desert me when things are rough, which is, especially when
you're dealing with someone who is really suffering. That is so encouraging. Jesus doesn't just
give up on me and walk out of my life. He never ever leaves me. So as I learn to be a better
friend, I'm emulating Jesus' friendship to me. I think sometimes we think of Him as a Savior, but
we're a little bit more reluctant to think of Him as our friend. He doesn't desert us. He is tight
with us.
Janet: Yeah.
Caroline: Amen, and really our goal and friendships shouldn't be to make women dependent on
us.
Janet: Right.
Caroline: But realize we are just reflections of Christ. So Christ's hands and feet in their lives.
Jocelyn: I actually think that's a really good disclaimer to make sure we say is that inside of
friendships, the goal is never that you're having a little posse of people that need you. goal of
friendships is to point them to the perfect friend and to be loving one another, like the Bible
teaches us to do, but we sometimes easily connect, 'Oh, it's so nice to be needed', with feeling
like somehow we have purpose now. I think that's a danger of not having the right focus on why
we are spiritual friends with people.
Janet: And that can be confusing because we say, 'Be like Jesus', 'Be a friend like Jesus', but not
be Jesus. So what does it look like for me to love you in a way that Jesus has loved makes more
sense to you? Because you've seen me do it poorly and only a shadow, but a little bit so that then
you can even imagine the real love.
Jocelyn: What might it actually be like? That's cool.
Janet: Yeah.
Caroline: Well, I'll just put a practical spin on that. I tell my friends who are suffering. I say, call
me, text me when you need to talk, but when you need it in the middle of the night, you just pray
to God about it. Go to Jesus in any time, even when I'm not available. So that's what I want to
emphasize with my friends.
Janet: Yes. Yes. There is someone who is always available because we're not. We're finite.
Jocelyn: And if you build too much reliance, if you're working with someone in your building
and ungodly reliance on you, then when you're not available at we crushing because they needed
you and no one was available to help them in their moment of need.
Janet: Yeah. So all of this, I think has kind of assumed, that we're talking to believers, people
who want to hear the Word. So what about someone listening today? And they're saying, well, is
it different? I have an unbelieving friend. Would I still use scripture when I'm trying to help her
with a problem?
Caroline: Yeah. I'm glad you asked that because this was something Cheryl and I talked about
when we were writing the book. We know that all of us are involved in other relationships,
family members, neighbors. And are we only supposed to speak scripture to people who believe
it? So this is a little apologetic for what is the purpose of scripture is why we put this in here, that
there were three points we made of why we should still speak scripture. Otherwise, I mean, we're
just restricting truth into a small group that believes. So one reason is because it's Jesus using
scripture that opens people's understanding. Romans 10:17, "Faith comes from hearing, hearing
through the word of Christ". So how else is somebody going to know wisdom?
Jocelyn: Right.
Caroline: Unless we say, I can tell you from the scripture, this is a wise way to act, not only that,
but we are to act before the Lord. So it's not just common grace wisdom. You can have a better
life, if you follow scripture, but you were actually made to reflect God. You are under His
dominion. So you can say that, and hopefully by that time, you're saying that you have built a
relationship so that somebody's willing to listen to you. You're not preachy, but you're actually
saying another thing that you could say is this is true in my life.
Janet: Right.
Caroline: I know this is real because it has in my own life. It's again, we're reflecting, what's
coming out of our hearts. What is real for us? But another reason to use scripture is Matthew 28:
19 & 20: "Go, therefore make disciples and you teach them and you're baptizing them". All types
of people. So, what else are we going to do? If we're just speaking to our Christian relationships,
we're not fulfilling the great commission to make disciples and disciples is what we are making. I
mean, we're actually talking about discipleship now, right? Real discipleship instead of just
having a class on disciples, but interacting personally with other people.
Jocelyn: And I think that takes a lot of wisdom when you're having conversations with people
who are not believers. I try to, I have two daughters. So we talk a lot about what conversations
should sound like, and we're totally open and totally Jesus freak when we're talking to our
Christian friends because we're on the same page. You have to narrow your words for the
audience that you're talking to, but it's the same person talking to an unsaved friend. And the way
that you converse shows that your base of truth is something different than theirs. And the way
that you think through decisions is different than theirs. And that we forget when we just live in
our Christian world, that that is very winsome. People don't make decisions like Christians make.
People don't think about marriage, family, or friendships like a Christian does. And so just
verbalizing the why behind why you live the way you do is very winsome and people want to
know why.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: Why would you live that weird way? Like why would you not do those things that I do?
Janet: And I think when someone's struggling, cause you know, that's part of in the book, you
give the four kinds of women at the end, and when someone is struggling and they're an
unbeliever, what an opportunity for them to understand there are answers. There is hope. And I
find most people who are not churched don't really expect the Bible to be practical.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: So I will even say sometimes you know what this is amazing. God's word actually
addresses what you just said to me.
Jocelyn: Really super specifically.
Janet: Yeah. Just so you know, and if you'd ever want to know what it said, and I find my
husband taught me this, he's like ask permission because they don't want to feel preached at, but
if I will say if you would ever like to hear about what it has to say, because as you're talking to
my mind just went, oh, my word God's word actually addresses that. How cool is that? If you
ever want to know, I have never had anyone say, I don't want to know because they're totally
curious then.
Jocelyn: So what does it say?
Janet: And now that they've asked me, they're not offended that I tell them because they asked
me. I respected them enough to ask, and Brent helped me. Our college ministry at Purdue, I ran
into some trouble there with sharing Truth when no one asked.
Jocelyn: Because you got pushy?
Janet: And it was like, but it's true. I can't give them less than Truth. But he's like ask them, ask
them, but because it's so true.
Caroline: Glad that you talking about asking permission because Cheryl and I did put that in our
book as well that we want to say something like I know something true. Would you like to hear
it? Could I share with you? Especially if this is what matters to me in my heart. Colossians 2:3
speaks of, "Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge". So there's
our verse for bringing Christ into these conversations that as we think about our friends who are
unbelievers, their real need is a spiritual need anyway, right? So I have a lot of women come and
meet with me with all kinds of needs. And I say, well, your real need is your relationship with the
Lord needs to be restored or it needs to be improved, or it needs to begin. Then that, gives a
Truth because my opening for Truth.
Janet: So the first half of the book, you help us to understand why it matters, and what needs to
be true. But then the second half starts to get really practical, which I really appreciated. You
picked four categories to talk about and then just give us some practicality. So how did you pick
those four and what are they?
Caroline: Well, we thought about what are the needs of the women we know. As we wrote the
book, we did include people we know, not by name, but people with real needs. So, I counsel a
lot of women who are worried, so we wanted a chapter on worry. We have people who are weary,
like the young mom who's tired, or an older person who feels that she can't get out and serve the
way she wants to, or the woman who has multiple sclerosis.
Janet: Yeah.
Caroline: The woman who has multiple sclerosis, who was in a wheelchair, and she knows that
her ministry is going to shrink.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Caroline: So she's weary and she needs to know truth. The wayward woman is somebody who
has not kept up with her testimony, not followed scripture We can't ignore that these are
important conversations we need to have with those women. And the last is weeping woman and
the person, I wrote as an example, had a series of just disasters in her life. So I thought of her as
we put that chapter together, what would be ways to encourage and strengthen her?
Janet: It was obvious that you've really been involved in people's lives because it got beyond just
the theoretical, to the actual scripture there. So can you talk us through maybe like the one who's
worried, what would be an example of a scripture passage and how you would share that with
someone?
Caroline: It's surprising? How many Christian women do not know the major passages for
worry? We tend to get wrapped up in our emotions without thinking, oh, the Bible does speak to
that. There all words to you. So the passage we started our chapter with was in 1 Peter 5: 6 & 7,
and it's the path that sounds familiar to you all probably, it says, " Humble yourselves, therefore,
under the mighty hand of God. So that at the proper time He may exalt you casting all your
anxieties on Him because He cares for you". So seven speaks of putting all your anxieties, but it's
linked to relationship. It's linked to God's care for you. It it's not just a trick.
Janet: Right.
Caroline: So we started with that, but we also used Matthew 6 when Jesus says, "Do not be
anxious. Do you not seeing the birds of the air, the flowers of the field? God cares for these little
things, and how much more really care for you because He loves you. In Philippians 4, starting
in verse four, speaks of rejoicing in the Lord. It says, let your reasonableness be known to
everyone. The Lord is at hand, do not be anxious at anything. Again, it's don't be anxious, but it's
because a relationship with the Lord, a lot of us leave that section out. The Lord is at hand, He's
near to you. So do not be anxious, but in everything with prayer and supplication with
Thanksgiving. Let your request be made known to God, and then you have that peace. You read
that to a hurting woman, worried woman, and she's like, oh yes, I want that peace. And then we
ended in Psalm 27 and I just gave Psalm 27 to a lady yesterday whose husband is struggling with
bipolar disorder. And she's like, I don't even know how to handle my life right now. It's
crazy-making happening here. So try to send her back with some resources, people to talk to in
church, but also think about the Lord is at hand. The Lord is your light and your salvation.
Whom shall you fear? The Lord is the stronghold of your life of whom shall you be afraid? But
just that peace and comfort comes in the Psalms. They're so expressive of these real needs.
Jocelyn: Yeah. I really loved the chapter that you wrote on helping the wayward friend, because I
think that is really hard because someone, it looks like they're making choices, and their so
satisfied with the choices that they're making. It's really hard to know in that moment. What
should it look like for me to love them? Or what should it look like for me to gently bring up this
elephant in the room. I just really liked how you wrote out here's the narrative of what this
friendship look like, and here were the times I intervene, and it happened over months. It wasn't
like I got together with her three times and then she came back to the Lord, but it was like, it was
months, maybe even years of carefully choosing to decide to be involved in her life. Then
carefully choosing your words when you did have conversations. I just thought that was practical
and helpful because all of us know someone who is wayward. All of us have someone that we
love that is not living for the Lord that has professed to be of the faith.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: So it was helped. I loved the weary, and the weeping chapters too. We work together
with a lot of women who are suffering, just immense measures of suffering. We counsel a lot
people who are just at a place of just weary in their suffering, and so those were really helpful. I
have never read a chapter on how to help someone that I love who was wayward. It was really
helpful.
Caroline: I do that a lot in counseling, and this could be small things, but I'll say, because I love
you, I really need to tell you this. So it's my care for you is coming out in what I'm saying to you.
Janet: And I love that because just it's so interesting. With the worrier, what we need is to
remember that God cares for us, and to have a hearing with the wayward, what they need to
know is that we care for them, and God cares for them. One of the foundational truthes for me
that seemed to come out as we really need to help others and certainly ourselves, but help others
have a right view of the care of God for them, because that's going to affect all of those areas. If I
really understood how much he loved me, would I be so wayward?
Jocelyn: Right.
Janet: Would I be worrying? So that the under arching, not just stop worrying, but understanding
that God cares for you.
Jocelyn: And even the weeping friend. I was just talking to someone yesterday who is literally,
there is so much terrible going on.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: And the counsel that I gave her was remember that it was God who dreamed this whole
thing up because He wanted to love you. He made you to love you. And in the midst of all the
suffering, that is what gives you, strength is He's weeping with you. The world is not working the
way He designed it to work. The sickness that's a part of it. It's not a part of His, what He had
designed
Janet: The ideal.
Jocelyn: Yeah. And what really gave her comfort was that in her weeping, there is a friend who
was weeping with her.
Janet: Right.
Jocelyn: Because He loves her. So that point is, it's the ultimate answer to all of the issues it's
bringing back to that relationship with God.
Janet: And so I love how in that part of the book, you helped us flesh out, well, how would we do
that? Here's a passage. How do we connect that to where they are? So, it's evident that you really
work with women and then
Jocelyn: For real.
Janet: You can help us learn to do that better too. How would you say that it's important to have
an eternal perspective? How does that impact the way we speak into the lives of other people?
Caroline: Oh, great question. That's what we need when we are working over and over with the
same person and we don't see results.
Janet: Yes.
Caroline: And our goal has to have this eternal perspective that we're doing God's mission, to
proclaim truth and we're asking Him to make it happen. So it's all for His glory really. Even if we
don't have success, we want God's eternal glory to be magnified. Even with our persistence and
our continued love and our continually speaking truth. It's for His glory. We hate to think of it
sometimes, but we also know that God gives us rewards in glory, but you know, it sounds selfish
to think, oh, I'm doing this.
Jocelyn: The Bible talks about it a lot.
Janet: Oh yeah.
Caroline: Exactly. And I've given a talk on that subject saying, you know, that keeps you going,
knowing the Lord sees what you're doing.
Janet: Yes. It's not in vain.
Caroline: And He will exalt you. I mean, that's part of the humility there's exaltation coming, so
that's all right. That's what we need sometimes to keep going when we get discouraged. It is an
eternal perspective.
Jocelyn: I think that's helpful too, because sometimes we're so shortsighted that we think
jumping in and being a good friend for two weeks is what that person needs. And, you know,
God designed us to be friends for life in the body of Christ. Like we're committed to one another
until we die and go to heaven and in heaven we will be together forever. And so I think that
eternal focus is really helpful. When we think this is not like you said, Caroline, it's not about
being a fair weather friend. It's not being a short-term friend. This is living life together for the
long-term. And if you're in the same body of believers, if you're in the same local church, you
could have the same friends for 50 or 60 years. Those needs are really going to change over time.
Janet: Yes. Yeah.
Caroline: You send out cards welcoming their baby, you know, eventually you send out cards,
sorry about the loss of your husband. Then, or your own illness all the way through a lifetime,
which is a beautiful thing about being in a body.
Janet: Well, as we're wrapping up one last question, I would love to get your answer to what
would you say to the woman who is hearing this right now, but is saying, you know, I'm not
equipped. I am fearful or I don't even know how to speak Biblical Truth into the life of someone
she loves. So you're telling me it needs to all be based on the Word, which means I can't do it
because I don't know enough. How would you encourage her? What steps can she take?
Caroline: Again, a great question. And I like it because this is pretty much how Cheryl and I
started our book together. She heard me give a talk called counseling in weakness.
Jocelyn: Oh, wow.
Janet: Excellent.
Caroline: So I feel so weak. I don't know if I can do this. So Cheryl and I wanted to speak to
women who are fearful or weak themselves about helping others. And we thought about Moses
in the Old Testament. the story of Moses saying, I can't do this big job you've given me. I am not
equipped. I have no skills. I don't think I can do this. His continual questions and complaints
with the answers that God gives in. The first answer is I will be with you. Exodus 3:12, "But I
will be with you". So we can tell women that, you know, you're doing God's work. He's actually
going to be with, you got the Holy Spirit at work to help you. And then to think the Lord has sent
you to do this. That's the Titus 2. We've been sent to do ministry with one another.
Jocelyn: That's so helpful to remember because sometimes it just feels like I'm just nobody
meeting this little need. Like who am I? It doesn't matter.
Caroline: No, again, the hands and feet of Christ. If you think about Christ's ministry through us
to other people. And Moses was told, I'm sending you on this mission. I will equip you. He says,
I am who I am. That's like the great I am is behind it. And He's going to validate His word as it
goes out. We've mentioned that already, but in Exodus 4, we see the validation of the signs that
Moses was given. You know, I'm real, and my Word is real and here's proof, and sometimes for
us, when we're ministering to others, we're wondering where those signs are, but we do see it.
We do see lives transformed. We see young women change from selfishness to service for the
rest of their lives. That's a beautiful thing.
Jocelyn: That's helpful to remember because I was actually thinking, yeah, sometimes I do want
to have signs that they don't seem to be there.
Janet: Right. But people are changing.
Jocelyn: The signs are there.
Caroline: That's true. And not only that, we know that the Lord is going to teach us as we go
along. So in Moses story, he said, I really, I can't speak. I'm slow of speech and of tongue. I feel
like that sometimes, but God says now therefore go and I will be with your mouth and teach you
what you shall speak. That's Exodus 4:12. So what do I say? Or I've never had this problem
before. I've never been a widow. What do I say to my friend who's newly widowed? Well, the
Lord is going to be there. He will teach you as you go to minister to that person. And that's really
the end that the Lord will provide. He provided Aaron. He'll provide someone perhaps to help
you. And that's where we look to people we don't know perhaps, or read books about these
subjects. So I've been asked to help somebody who has OCD, but I don't know much about
OCD. So I'm collecting information, books, booklets, pamphlets, podcasts, even and saying,
okay, I need to be equipped, and the Lord is helping me with that. Just like he provided Aaron,
He's going to equip me to do His work, the work He sent me to do.
Janet: I love that. And I think, you know, any of us that have been helping other women, we've
all been in places where, OK I'll just speak for me. I've been talking to someone and I feel like I
went everywhere. I don't even know what I said. I mean, it was not heresy, but I went on every
bunny trail, and then they come back the next week and they go, I am a changed person, and it's
the Word of God because it certainly was not my amazing whatever. Then I've had times where
I've thought I knew exactly what they needed to hear, and we were, did this. The next week it
was like, nah, it kind of fell flat, and you realize, it's the Lord that's going to do it. But I go back
to what you said, as far as, what does the friend need to possess? Which is probably helpful
instead of I need all the answers. Am I Spirit filled? Am I humble? Am I loyal? That's what God
requires of me. Then I use His word and I fumbled through it, but I'm giving Truth, but I don't
know quite the way to say it, but they know I love them. They know I'm loyal. They know I'm
humbly just trying to help them, and then God uses His word in ways we can't even imagine.
Jocelyn: And if they're believers, they also have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit's helping you,
and the Holy Spirit is helping them. It's like double team.
Caroline: So true. That's why we're always bathed in prayer. Aren't we? Before we go in and
after we leave, Lord, just do your work.
Janet: Yes. I love that. Well, Caroline, thank you for spending some time with us today. And I
hope when I think about what the listeners can walk away with, number one, we will obviously
have your book linked in our show notes, so they'll have access to the book so they can get more
out of that for sure. But also thinking about, I would hope they could grow in confidence that the
Word really does have answers. That it really is practical. That if what's required of them is to be
Spirit-filled, which means controlled by the Word of God. Not that I feel a particular something,
and that I need to be humble and I need to be loyal. We can all do that.
Jocelyn: Yeah.
Janet: And with the help of the Spirit, we can grow and being better in the rest of it. So thank you
for taking some time to spend with us.
Caroline: And I wish you all the best in the joyous journey that you're having.
Jocelyn: It is joyous
Janet: Well, for those listening, thank you for joining us, and we hope you'll be able to join us for
our next episode as we go on the journey together.
To keep from missing any future episodes, please sign up for our newsletter on our webpage
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joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible
Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to
receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money
for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their
website.
